Wikipedia: Masculism/Talk

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My personal opinion of masculism and the "men's rights" movement (and I am male) is that it is a joke. One only has to look at countries like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia to see that in the world in general women are treated awfully, and men by comparison have it sweet. Even in Western countries, men still have it better off than women: at the top echelons of society (government, the corporate world), men still outnumber women. Even though its imporving, women still take primary responsibility for raising children, and hence their careers suffer. Certaintly, some feminists do fit the sterotype of a 'man-hater' but these are by far in the minority. Most feminists who get accused of "hating men" are actually making quite valid points. And again, most of the discrimination in our society against men is a result of traditional conceptions of sex roles, discrimination which is opposed by feminists. As to "affirmative action" or "positive discrimination", while it might not be nice to lose out as an individual through it, it is necessary for the good of society as a whole. -- SJK

: So what? You might be right, and I might (or might not) agree with you. But this is not a discussion forum. It is an encyclopaedia. clasqm

Yeah, I know. But where else am I to sprout my opinions? :)

: What do women-raping and oppressing fanatics in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan have to do with the lack of men's rights on certain issues in the USA and Europe? There are many men involved in the men's right's movement who themselves are feminists, who are in fact liberal, and who fight for equality between the sexes...but who also decry the fact that men are treated very unequally in many ways. Have you ever compared funing for diseases that affect only men, versus diseases that affect women? It is downright embarassing. Are you aware that in the USA, men have virtually no rights on whether to have children or not, and only women do? Or that most men have virtually no say in what goes in our government (just like women)? Are you aware that women's average life-span's are increasing, while men's are not? Discussing this issue is most certainly not a joke. Your criticism is misplaced, for it is against anti-feminists, but that is a different group. Let us keep in mind that not all feminists hate men (Although some undeniably do), and not all people in men's rights groups are anti-feminist. RK

: Sprout? :-)

: It may be true that some masculinists are not anti-feminist, but this article as it is currently written does not give that impression. Instead, it contains several criticisms of feminism and cites those as representing the views of masculinism. It is also worth pointing out that many feminists, including Gloria Steinem, have stated that sexism negatively affects men in certain ways, and this article does not address this facet of the issue. --Egern.

: If anybody feels qualified to address this, I assume we also want to throw [Camille Paglia]? into this mix; Paglia is as far as I can tell sympathetic to Masculism.

The article is fairly decent, based on what I have read elsewhere it presents a fairly neutral overview of the concepts and principles of the relevant groups and authors. The second last sentence about how "feminists respond" is a little troubling and seems to be an assertion of fact rather than relating a claim by a masculism proponent. - MMGB

There is, in my view, some subtle but clear bias in favor of "masculinism" expressed in this article.

I agree with the latter (as of Nov. 9). --LMS

Is the Wikipedia positive or normative? If it is normative (that is, expressing a "correct" usage that is not necessarily the most widely used one) I would have to argue for a complete redefinition of "sexism", "masculism" and "feminism". Personally I consider myself a sexist (in my definition of the word) and believe that it is the more correct system, and think that the words "sexist", "masculist" and "feminist" are misleading. "feminist", for example, can mean a man-hater, but it often means someone who wants equal rights for women. Since such a person also wants equal rights for men (transitivity of "equal") then they are masculists as well, right? If the Wikipedia purpose is positive, however, this viewpoint is irrelevant. Thus, I return to my question: is WP positive or normative? --KamikazeArchon

: Interesting but IMHO tough question. Are other encyclopedias (e.g. Britannica) positive or normative?

Are you guys sure the article isn't a joke? It looks a lot like the (soon to be deleted?) rant that Mr. xxx kept putting on the Feminism page. I'd like to see a balanced examination of feminism, which I might decide to try someday if no one else does it. Ed Poor

: This is not constructive criticism. If you have a specific flaw to point out, let's hear it. The previous criticisms of this entry were also vague allusions, and not specific nor supportable. I think that there are many people who think that all people in the men's right movement hate feminism, and fear them. This is no doubt the reason that this article was censored by cowards at Nupedia. But this is obviously a double standard. Most of us do not claim that most feminists hate men, or want more rights than men, right? So why act this way towards people in the men's rights movement? Why take the sins of a few and project them onto the majority? This is inappropriate.RK

: Sorry, I was really asking whether the posting was intended as a joke. I guess you mean it's a serious article. I will treat it as such, no offense intended. Ed Poor

A long time ago I came across the term "masculist" in a feminist dictionary. It was defined as meaning "male chauvinist pig". Has anyone else come across this use? --Zundark, 2001 Dec 6

: Um, this sort of thing isn't necessarily meaningful. I'm sure I can find examples of "capitalist" defined as "selfish, evil, agent of Satan" and examples of "communist" defined as "selfish, evil, agent of Satan". What are you getting at here?

: Only that if the term has another meaning, perhaps this should be mentioned. --Zundark, 2001 Dec 7

: Sounds fair! But only if it's a "real" meaning (In my example, neither capitalist nor communist really mean that, even though some people might consistently use them that way.)