Wikipedia: Christian Mythology/Talk

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Are the examples in this article apporpriate for the term "mythology?" King Arthur isn't really related at all to the accounts in the Bible or the Hebrew scriptures. Your right, this article definitely needs some clarification. -- Jzcool

I recommend that ideas which are currently part of mainstream theologies not be labelled mythology. To me at least, mythology implies legends that are no longer taken seriously, like the greek myths. While to a materialist, all the supernatural parts of the Bible may by "myth", to religious believers these things are part of their living faith.

Perhaps a less insulting term can be used, which nevertheless serves the purpose. Perhaps someone less emotionally involved than I am, can straighten this out: neither a fervent believer nor a materialist. Who will it be? --Ed Poor

: I agree with this. We have to be careful not to label The New Testament, nor most of the Apocrypha, belief in the existence of angels, demons and the devil or Hebrew New Testament quotations as 'mythology'. This label will indeed offend many Christians. I'm afraid whoever started this article will have to come up with specific stories generally considered myths. Then we can look at those examples one by one.--TK

I think it is entirely appropriate to describe these stories as myths. A "myth", despite the popular impression to the contrary, is not a false story -- it is merely a religious story. If we are not going to call Christian religious stories false, what right do we have to call the religious of the ancient Pagan faiths myths? To make this distinction between Christian stories and Pagan stories is not NPOV.

And if you counter that many people today make use of Pagan stories, or find them in some way enjoyable, without believing in their truth: the same thing applies to the Bible also. Many non-Christians find the Bible an interesting book to read without actually believing half the stories therein are true. -- SJK

As the main author of this page, I certainly meant no insult, and I tried to keep a NPOV that was sensitive to religious faith.

I think there are stories that are mythological that have very strong Christian themes -- these I would call Christian Myths. For example, the stories of King Arthur and stories of common folk outsmarting the Devil. (Folklore might be an interesting avenue to explore as well.) These are less controversial, I think, because fewer people believe these to be divinely inspired truths.

More controversial are texts that to some are both sacred and true but that to others are merely equivalent to other mythologies -- for example, the beginning of Genesis and other Creation Myths, the story of Noah and portions of the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Norse Ragnorak and the Apocalypse. I suggest that the best way to approach these topics from a NPOV is to point out (with citations, ideally) that some consider these to be mythological while others find such characterizations offensive.

Ed Poor, you seem to disagree with the terms "myth" and "mythology." I hope I will not offend you by quoting from the myth page:

A myth (not to be confused with an urban myth or urban legend) is a story which has deep explanatory or symbolic resonance for a culture. The term is sometimes used pejoratively in reference to the beliefs of a religion, to imply that the story is both fanciful and fictional. It is more often used to refer to a story that has been recorded as part of the history of a culture.

(snip)

The myths that make up a culture's mythology are stories with deep explanatory or symbolic resonance for a culture.

Let me invite folk to talk about why these definitions are offensive and to offer ways to redefine them with more of a NPOV. Should we link this page on the [[Wikipedia utilities/Controversial? subjects]] page? Thanks for your feedback -- Cayzle

Can't get that darn [[Wikipedia utilities/Controversial? subjects]] link to work!

From Merriam-Webster dictionary (www.m-w.com) . . .

1 a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b : PARABLE, ALLEGORY 2 a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism -- Orde Coombs> b : an unfounded or false notion 3 : a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence 4 : the whole body of myths

When discussing 'myths' on Wikipedia, sense (1a) above is the primary one we would use. Note that that definition says nothing about the truth or falsehood of the events -- it says it is "ostensibly historical", without saying whether it actually is or not.

The other MW definitions, like (2b), really can't serve as the basis of an encyclopedia article -- we aren't going to write an article on "unfounded or false notions", especially since no one could agree what those unfounded or false notions were...

I see no problem with calling the stories of Jesus, Noah, etc., myths. People may find that offensive at first, but so long as we make clear that by calling them myths we are passing no judgement on their truth or falsehood, just commenting on their religious significance or cultural function, than they would no longer have any rational reason to be offended. -- SJK

: I don't think that's going to work, because the MB (2b) definition will seem to be operating, regardless of your sympathetic intent. How about 'Creation Myths' as a separate article?

: Creation myth is already a page of its own -- and I like the idea of linking to it! But many myths are not about "creation" at all. -- Cayzle

: The MW definition (2b) is not NPOV. We really have only two choices -- make our mythology articles use MW definition (1a) (in which case the story of Jesus is undoubtedly a myth), or else not use the words myth or mythology at all. So either Jesus is a myth, or there shall be no mention of myths at all. If neither choice sounds ideal, that is only because of inbuilt Christian (or Jewish or Islamic) bias that most readers have. -- SJK

: I suggest that a good approach might be to use MB (1a) as a foundation and acknowledge (2b) as a common point of view -- see my latest change to the page. -- Cayzle

I really like this latest version except for this: "Some people may consider referring to the Bible as a collection of myths to be offensive, but that is only because they have failed to understand the definition of myth we are using here." This sentence, especially the last half, sounds a little smarmy. I suggest, "Note that some people may consider referring to the Bible as a collection of myths to be offensive." and just leave it at that. -- Cayzle