2) Piast rulers under Czech gvt in XV century were called ,,Polish princes''
3) Whether Silesia was part of Great Moravian state is still controversy among the historians, although most are supporting that view
4) Polish kings (Polish from origin, not title) ruled Silesia also in XV and XVI century (Jagiellons).
5) One could argue that Poland was part of HRE in XIII century after Krzyszkow, ealier - well, there is enough arguments both for showing that Poland was in HRE, or that it wasn't. Hundred pages of paper were filled with discussion of terms like ,,friend of emperor or ,,paid tribute up to warta. However one could also argue that allegiance given by, IIRC Mieszko Stary (?) was just single event.
6) In XIII century one of centres of rebuilding Poland was Silesia (Henryk Brodaty etc)
7) in XIV and XV century some of Piasts from Silesia were close Polish allies, were ready to join Poland, as were some cities which begged Poland for protection (telling the truth, mostly because hussite wars not nationality, but hey, i can biased too :))) ).
8) Up to XVIII century most of Silesia population was Slavic (not Polish or Czech, but Slavic), which quickly changed with introduction of modern educational system. I would have to search for more data on this, but i think i have some book about that in my home.
I would like to add that the name of mountain /(soft S)L(nasal E)(hard Z)A/, which is mentioned above, comes probably from the name of dense fog which is characteristic for Silesia, also nowadays. The mountain was a place of solar cult in prehistoric times, special ceremonies took place there during the shortest day in the year. A number of interesting prehistoric sculptures (mainly animals) is preserved and can be seen in its slopes. Now Sleza is very popular destinations for tourists from Wroclaw, especially during weekends. Kazik. For how long before WWII was Silesia in Germany? Was it, earlier, part of the kingdom of Poland and, ever, part of the Holy ROman Empire? --rmhermen
1. In 895 the Bohemia / Moravia (including Silesia at that time) princes came to Regensburg of Frankish and Holy Roman Empire and pledged allegiance to German emperor Arnulf of Carinthia .
2. 622-662 first Slavs in Europe are the Moravians under Frankish ruler Samo.
3. Mieszko I was first duke of a Poland seperat from Czech (formerly Czech and Lech)Mieszko I and son Boleslaw I Chrobry (as well as later Polish rulers pledged allegiance to emperor in turn for receiving land on loan (landlien) to rule over.
4.The Polish Piast rulers died out in 1370. (Imperial law, when a ruling house dies out , the land reverts back to the empire.
5. In circa 1537 Brandenburg Hohenzollernrulers made an agreement with the Silesian German Piasts, that Brandenburg would inherit Silesia rule. Emperor did not permit it, because the emperor (Maximilian I) had made an agreement in 1515 with Polish and Hungary ruler .Maximilian adopted Luis of Hungary.
6. Crossen , Or Krossen district (Schwiebus referred to in above website as 1815) including Zuellichau came under Brandenburg rule in 1472.
Are you sure about etymology of name Silesia ? It seems too similar to its Polish name Śl&aogonek;sk which is of clearly different etymology (from Mount Śl&eogonek'&zdotabove;a)
There are many other geographical Polish names that were latinized with ending -ia, and there was either a short vocative e/i vowel (vocal yer) between first two consonants or second consonant was a vocal l, which sounds like el/il, so s(short i)l(something that sounds like on)sk(short e)/s(short i)l(something that sounds like nasal e)(hard vocative z)- -> silesia seems very likely.
Sorry, but your etymology sounds like some German propaganda. --Taw
Generally there is no such consonant pair in old Polish as /(soft S)L/. But in Polish 'short soft e/i' and 'short hard e/i' (these two letters exist in Russian spelling as soft yer and hard yer, but they aren't pronounced) become silent in most positions. So it was probably /S(short soft e/i)L(nasal E)(hard Z)-/. Usual way of latinization at that times were taking local name (which was only spoken, national languages weren't written at that time), write in to be pronounciable in Latin, and append grammatically-correct suffix. This suffix was often '-ia', as in (Mazowsze -> Mazovia, Kalisz -> Kalisia, Warszawa -> Varsovia). Also because Latin had no letter for nasal E and hard Z, they were written as E and S. So natural latinization was 'S?LESIA'. The last problem is what has happened to short soft e/i. It could be any of E I or nothing. At that time short vowels were pronounced, so nothig wouldn't be very probabe. I don't know why it became I and not E. That might have been feature of local dialect or something like that. Anyway 'SILESIA/SELESIA' is clearly Latin encoding of Polish name of this tribe and region.
I've never heard anything about this Silinger tribe. I think that I would if their existence and name were generally accepted, because I live here. --Taw
________
I would like to add that the name of mountain /(soft S)L(nasal E)(hard Z)A/, which is mentioned above, comes probably from the name of dense fog which is characteristic for Silesia, also nowadays. The mountain was a place of solar cult in prehistoric times, special ceremonies took place there during the longest day in the year. A number of interesting prehistoric sculptures (mainly animals) is preserved and can be seen in its slopes. Now Sleza is very popular destinations for tourists from Wroclaw, especially during weekends. Kazik.
And, the second issue, history of Silesia presented in this article is strange. Around year 1000, where written history of this region starts, whole Silesia and most of east Germany were completely Slav. Western (German, Dutch, Jewish and other) settlement happened only later, and this part of history is well documented, as all cities have their history written, there are different types of city laws etc. Probably all of early city names in Silesia have Slav origins, so if there were any Germans there at that time, they were very few of them.
Sentence 'This endet the free Silinger Silesia era' is very silly, as Silesia became independent not much time later.
And last thing, this history doesn't notice Silesian Walls - fortifications build on western border of Silesia (current Polish western border is further west than Silesian border) before 1000, so it's way incomplete --Taw
comments in italics
Ptolemy in his book Geography recorded in Germany as follows: "Below the Semnones the Silingae have their abodes, and below the Burguntae are the Lugi Omani: below these are the Lugi Diduni extending as far as the Asciburgius mountains,and below the Silingae are the Calucones on both banks of the river Albis; below whom are the Chaerusci and the Camavi extending as far as Melibocus mountain,from whom toward the east along the Albis river are the Banochaemae; above whom are the Batini, and above these, but below the Asciburgius mountains are the Corconti and the Lugi Buri extending as far as the source or the Vistula river; first below these are the Sidones, then the Gotini, then the Visburgi above the Orcynium forest... The source and mouth of the Albis Oder River and of the Vistula River are in Germania." Source: Claudius Ptolemy The Geography, Translated and edited by Edward Luther Stevenson, Dover Publications, Inc N.Y. ISBN O-486-26896-9.
Again, I would like to remind everybody that ptolemy isn't what we'd call an accurate source -- he based his map upon what people told him --often second- or third hand
Procopius of Caesarea , historian of Byzantium reported that those Vandili remaining in the Oder area ,sent messages to the 'Vandili' in Northern Africa.
i'm not sure what Vandals sending messages to Vandals has to do with Silingii???
Vandali , Asdinger , Silinger and Alans were in confederation with the Franks.
I've heard of loose alliances between the Vandals, Alans, and Franks -- very early on, and susceptible to the whims of the idividual leaders -- where did you see the Asdingeer and Silingii as part of this group, and when?
First the Huns, then Avars and Slavs , then Hungarians stormed into Germania.
I don't think they stormed in any more than anyone else at the time -- Germans stormed into ROme, Vikings stormed into the continent...kinda meaningliess, really -- more inflammatory than anything else
By the 7st century small amounts of Slavs started to take over some areas, vacated by those Vandali who had left for Africa. There they lived amongs the remaining Germanic people. Silinger then concentrated around the mount Zobten.
possibly also those areas left by the Silingii -- who, if allied with the Franks, must have moved west with them...
The Regensburg? (table of peoples) Voelkertafel lists four Silesian Gaue (latin pagi).
significance?
990 Polish duke Mieszko Icame and attacked the Oderland , the region around the Oder river. He was aided by German troops of margrave of Meissen and by men of the bishopric of Meissen. Mieszko I first conquered the Boehmenburg (Bohemia burg) on the Oder island . This endet the free Silinger Silesia era, because from then on ( the first Christianization-take-over) Silesia was embroiled in political battles.
if everybody agrees (and they pretty much do) that the Silingii were long gone by the 10th century, what does this mean. Also -- what "free" era are you talking about? Some kind of idealized Ur-Germanic state? That is sadly just a remnant of 19th c. political and historical theory -- right along with the ideas of the noble savage... doesn't have anything to do with modern evidence (by which I mean evidence discovered recently having to do with previous times)... JHK
Well, H.J., if you are deriving the English word 'government' from 'gow-ernment', then it casts further doubt on the rest of your etymologies. Government is derived from the Latin gubernator, "a helmsman". Just because two things sound similar in languages that are related does not mean that the connection is meaningful. Taw's consideration of the phonetic components is more likely. --MichaelTinkler
I know that popular knowledge says that Charlemagne divided everything up nicely into counties and gaue -- but can you tell me which primary source says he did? I've worked with a lot of sources from the 8th through 10th century, and have never seen one that demonstrates this -- in fact in several hundred land transactions that I used for the main part of my thesis (transactions dating from 740ish to 911), pagus was used only about 10 times to describe an area, and comitatus only about 5 -- mostly after 900).
Michael Tinkler is right about gubernator, by the way. J Hofmann Kemp
The average priest is more likely to have said "God only understands Latin." I can easily believe that the German language was suppressed in Poland (just as I can easily believe that the Germans suppressed many other languages and even many dialects of German themselves), but to say something that silly! Not that I don't believe that some silly priest said it (disclaimer: the writer is himself a Roman Catholic), but it was hardly communist party line (they don't believe in God) or Catholic doctrine. --MichaelTinkler
I do know, that the Catholic church for a long time handled THE administration of the empire , because the newly converted 'heathens' did not read nore write. Therefore you have to look at all bishops and archbishops for early German history. At some interregnum times the archbishop of Cologne was THE higest authority in the empire.
About Latin ,in confession ,I believe, people are allowed to speak their mothertongue ?
H. Jonat
On the grounds of lay-literacy in the middle ages, you have just stepped into yet another history-trap. I am giving a paper in January at a session of the American Philological Session annual convention in which all the papers are devoted to lay literacy in the early middle ages. There was a LOT of it, Helga. Much more than 19th or early 20th century historians knew. Most of the administrators of Charlemagne's empire whose names are known were laymen. So don't go playing the old 'only clerics were literate' card, because it's not true. I'll be happy to give you bibliographical references. Start with Rosamond McKitterick?, The Carolingians and the Written Word (I think that's the correct title).It is. Cambridge University Press:1989. ISBN 052130539X (amazon.com, search) or 0521315654 (paper. See especially c. 6, "The Literacy of the Laity" -- JHK. Some of the best evidence, by the way, comes from East Frankish areas - so there was lay literacy there, too. The rest of your argument is IRRELEVANT. Theposition of the Catholic Church in the middle ages has precious little to do with 1950s Poland. --MichaelTinkler
I know that this is open content, everybody can edit, stuff, but at least try to make edits that fit into or better what is written. If you must add stuff about the Polaken (?) that I saw in none of the German-Silesia origins stuff I read, then put it under argument number 1, Silesia is German.
Oh -- I note that you are still avoiding putting any thought into what I wrote above on Charlemagne and Gaues. You might want to re-read that before you continue making the same claims over and over again JHK
In 1945 all of Silesia was taken by Soviet Union troops. Stalin (the Four Powers) assigned it Poland.
During the years 1946-1989 thousands of people claiming German ancestors moved
to the Federal Republic of Germany, which then became their new home. [[West
Germany]] welcomed warmly the German people from Poland, because of the negative demographic growth.
There were at least three reasons why people of mixed German-Polish ancestry
or ethnic Germans left Silesia.
During the WWII they fled out of fear,
they were often families of German soldiers, administration, policemen, secret
police (Gestapo) or criminal police etc. They had quite substantiated fears
that they might be persecuted by the advancing Red Army.
Soon after the
WWII when Silesia was handed over back to Poland there were pressures or direct
orders for Germans to repatriate to their homeland. Probably those who stayed
behind claimed and pledged Polish citizenship.
Between around 1960-1989
thousands of people applied for transfer to West Germany. They tried hard to
find a German grandparents or other close relatives and learn a precious little
of German language to become elegible. They were not by no means
Heimatvertriebene (whatever it means in English) they were rather affluency
seekers and in a considerable proportion of cases they wanted to reunion with
their families in Germany.
Obviously some of so called German minority chose to stay after all - they
were simply too old or had a house and some real estate they were attached to.
People of mixed origin (German-Polish families or ancestors) and some German Silesians stayed in their homeland. They were exposed to some forms of discrimination by the Polish communist authorities and by some Polish priests in the years after the World War II, who told the Germans they should learn Polish.
Changing names, forbiding speak or learn German - it was true injustice but let's remember Germanisation of Polish people under the German rule that had been going on for centuries.
After the fall of the communist regime in Poland the Silesia Germans, now a
minority in Poland,were guaranteed freedoms of democratic societies, they even
have their representation in the Polish Parliament as well as freely
elected local governments. They have German press, radio and TV programms
and they can freely learn and speak German as well as cultivate German cultural
activities.
Changing names, forbiding speak or learn German - it was true injustice but let's remember Germanisation of Polish people under the German rule that had been going on for centuries.
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