Wikipedia: Prussia/Talk

I've tried to make this English. First of all, I have cut out at least half of the mere translations - giving the German (or hypothetical Germanic reconstruction) in parentheses is not enough. All the material about the Germanic tribes by Tacitus is VERY doubtful. I am far from qualified to rule on lots of this - I don't read the archaeology on which the latest research depends. The 1911 source is certainly not of much use on this material, but neither is anything much published in German before 1970. A pointer for wikipedia -- read the how does one edit a page and use double brackets -- that's this: [ to make a wikipedia link.

For anyone not familiar with Tacitus, see : Penguin Classics , Tacitus, The Agricola and the Germania, Translated by H. Mattingly, Translated Revised by S. A. Handford , Penguin Books Ltd, London etc available at amazon.com , Barnes & Noble and other book stores.

To Michael Tinkler !!! Thank you for your fine job.

 Sorry, I need to change it back.

Albrecht of Brandenburg did n o t dissolve the Teutonic Knights. He only took off his robe as Grandmaster ( resigned the position ). The Habsburgs continued leading the Teutonic Knights and Maximilian III, son of emperor Maximilian Habsburg II, held among other positions the title : Ordinis Teut(onicus) Magnus many years later.

Just to be pedantic: I think most of the contributers to this page and things Germania are familiar with Tacitus, and most with the Mattingly translation (of which there are many others). The point is that Tacitus is not considered a reliable source on the Germans. Go back and read some MichaelTinkler comments for more elucidation.

The PrUB Preussische Urkunden Buch or Prussian Law book records are published copyright 2000 Stuart Jenks , cannot copy it . So check www.webtop.comm or altavista for :Preussische Regesten stuart Jenks , year 1224 . March

I have a copy of the Hon. B.Carroll Reece Speech . Would anyone please let me know if you are familiar with this ? And your thoughts on this ?

 For some of the Polish crown check the Holy Roman Empire (family album) book at http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/desbillons/eico.html  and check all the title

If you need to find the family connections go to Uni hull,uk http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/

                       H. Jonat

The entire first two paragraphs are doubtful, at best. JHK

Paul: you do have a point (to state it mildly), but I must admit, that Prussia/Waid shit was pretty fun to read. --TheCunctator

Should "Pomesania" be Pomerania? I wasn't confident enough to change it. --corvus13

No, Pomerania (Pommern) is north of Berlin . Further east is Pomesania , one of the lands of Old Prussia ,later called East Prussia , City of Elbing (Polish Elblag) is in the land of Pomesania.

OK, thanks, glad I didn't change it. :-) --corvus13

Took out the following because: a) it just sat there not fitting in, and; b)WHAT Bavarian geographer?

"In 850 AD Bavarian geographers recorded the "Brus"."

It is unclear from the initial entry as to who the participants in the War with Poland were -- as well as who negotiated the Peace of Thorn. It would be good to know this, instead of just putting in something about the Pope and Emperor not recognizing the treaty, as if it was not ok. Did they have that right? Why or why not? What was the result of their action? These are the types of questions that need to be answered in an article, IMHO.JHK

I have quote from book "Unvergessene Heimat Ostpreussen", Bernd G. Laengin ISBN 3-89350-786-8 (amazon.com, search) Weltbild Verlag from Laengin's Zeittafel. (I have previously seen this Zeittafel on internet under Ostpreussen, do not have exact url, but found out Laengin is a correspondent and lived/lives? in Canada. If you check the PR UB Preussische Urkunden Buch Preussische Regesten http://www.webtop.com by Stuart Jenks put on internet in the year 1234 Prussia, Lovonia etc received citizenship under the empire. Golden Bull of Rimini 1226 and 1234 Rieti took Prussia ,Old Prussi Land under pope and emperor direct. The emperor and the pope were the highest authority in Europe. The emperor had precedent over all Christian rulers. H. Jonat

: O.K., HJ, I'll take you up on the last sentence alone. The Emperor *claimed* precedence over all Christian rulers. In fact, the claim meant nothing at all. No one outside the Empire recognized anything but a vague 'precedence' - that is, if they'd all been at a dinner, he would have gone in first, or if they'd all been at a conference, he would have been the de iure host. It doesn't mean that anyone outside the empire did anything he said. Ditto for the pope. Most of medieval history is the story of the European nobility ignoring what the popes told them. On to a substantive issue: I am not at all sure what you mean by Golden Bull of Rimini 1226 and 1234 Rieti took Prussia ,Old Prussi Land under pope and emperor direct. Direct what? Direct ownership?

: Do you think you might at least TRy to answer the questions I asked? I wasn't debating the facts, only pointing out that this is another instance where you don't write in complete thoughts. You don't say who the participants in the war were, etc. Plus, what you say here implies something very different than what you added to the article. There, you imply that the pope and the emperor had no right to deny the terms of the peace, to Prussia's detriment. Here, you say that they had rights to make the final call on every treaty. Be consistent.JHK

Moved this: , where the Ur, bison of Europe survived to this day.

because it didn't seem relevant to the paragraph and because I checked 6 or seven articles on the Aurochs/Ur?, and they said the last true Aurochs died out in 1620. Since then, the breed has been "re-created" by breeding from the genetically oldest cattle breeds -- this was done by Germna scientists, so they may well be in Prussia. JHK

: historical conservation of breeds! yikes! There's also that horse-thing that they're rebreeding in Poland, I think. --MichaelTinkler

Took out Auroch reference again. Since the last ones were found in Poland, I can't see how it supports a claim that parts of Prussia remained wild later than the rest of Europe. if you want to be specific, then there's a good argument that the last wild area was the imperial hunting preserve that Goering kept up for his own hunting pleasure. I think that was on the Polish/Hungarian? border...JHK

I didn't follw the discussion here, but is there a reason why the German name for prussia (Preussen or Preußen) is not mentioned on the name page? Magnus Manske

Yes, there is a reason. Anytime I input the German name, I am told, that this is an English language encyclopedia and therefore the names have to appear as they are known in English. I have numerous times pointed out, that the correct name should also be used, only to constantly have someone change it. Even my Webster's Collegiate Dictionary lists: "Preussen , Prussia , the German name." But secondly all the older German maps show Prussia or Preussen. Prussia is therefore ok with me. Gdansk or Elblag ,Albrecht the Baer was changed to Albert etc and that however is not ok with me , but when you check wikipedia you will find that it was changed to that too after a lot of crap I have been getting for pointing out repeatedly, that correct names should be used. H. Jonat

Well, Magnus, every time H.J. puts in a little German, she puts in a lot, so editors tend to overreact. The name 'Preussen' should appear, in italics so that we all admit that it's not an English word, immediately after the first occurrence of 'Prussia' and then not again. That much I would live with. All of this 19th century folklore-studies stuff is much less tenable. --MichaelTinkler

To Magnus and Michael Just for curiosity, I did check Webster's Collegiate and verified, that it does state: Preussen. Webster's handles it the same way that Larry Sanger handled Gdingen and Gdynia. But I was told that Larry is not always right. I believe Larry is right and both names (sample given earlier : Instambul and Constantinople should have entrances . MichaelTinkler you have been handling the two name situation very well too. H. Jonat

I see my name used in vain here (in more ways than one, apparently ;-) ). Cf. [1] and [2] (just data points). I imagine that the use of "Preussen" vs. "Prussia" is something that people who write or study a lot about Prussia (in English) would be better qualified to speak about than the editors of Webster's Collegiate or, ahem, me. :-)

For clarity, let me say that the way I'd propose to handle the Gdingen vs. Gdynia issue is: the history of Gdynia post-1920 obviously belongs on Gdynia. The history of the town before that could be placed on Gdingen, because that's what the town was known as then. I don't have a strong view on that. But it could also (or instead) be placed on Gdynia, I imagine.

The latter issue is not analogous to the use of "Preussen" here, I think: as far as I know, the usual English word for the country has always been "Prussia," and "Preussen" is new to me (it is a German word that, maybe, a few historians writing in English, for whatever reasons they might have, sometimes use instead of "Prussia"). Unlike "Gdingen," which presumably was the name of the town used by English speakers before 1920 (though I'm just guessing!), "Preussen" was (I guess!!) never the usual name for what we in English call "Prussia." If my guesses are all correct, I agree with JHK.

More generally, I totally support the principle Helga explains above, namely, any English names for things ought to be used in the English language Wikipedia. We don't call the article about Germany "Deutschland." "Deutschland," contrary to Helga, is not more correct, in English, than "Germany." (I'm referring to her comment above, "I have numerous times pointed out, that the correct name should also be used.") In fact, it's less correct: it's just confusing, bad, and probably pretentious English to use "Deutschland" when the perfectly good and accurate English word, "Germany," is available. Of course, when describing places that have different names in their native languages, or other relevant languages, sure, it's a very good idea to give the name in the native language once (as Michael says above). But in referring to the place, if there's an English name, then by golly, use it! That's what it's there for!

If I have misunderstood anyone or what the debate was about, I apologize profusely in advance. :-) --LMS

Was Prussia really its own diocese? That seems very strange, considering that usually they were tied specifically to cities. Also, FYI Helga, you can find Adam of Bremen in the Monumenta Germanica Historiae. Again, please be careful when believing this stuff as pure fact -- if we trusted all of these early chronicals, we'd have to believe that the Merovingians were descended from sea-monsters, as Fredegar reports. JHK

he might have been personally Christian of Prussia, but he must've been bishop of a city. --MichaelTinkler

: In which case, unless he governed in Prussia, he wasn't Christian OF Prussia, but Christian, a guy from Prussia. In later times, he could conceivably have been prince-bishop, but again, bishops belong to cities...JHK

later, having poked around - No, how odd! According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, he was 'bishop of Prussia'. See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03704a.htm They really never mention a city. Very unusual - so unusual that I'm a little put out that they don't mention how odd it is. The papal legate obviously thought it was and divided Prussia into dioceses.--MichaelTinkler

: Odd -- but perhaps he was a Chorepiscopos or something -- given apostolic charge of Prussia in the short-term as a kind of Boniface wannabe, and who found himself sorely disappointed when the papal legate stepped in with actual administration...JHK

Removed a bunch of "see also" links because many already existed in the article body, and others had little if anything to do with the article as written. JHK

: They achieved this largely through the co-opting of local Slavic chieftains into a system of mutual defense and allegiance. This policy not only bound former enemies to the Emperor, but also prevented any of the Emperor's West Frankish leading men from expanding their own power bases eastward. It is not surprising, then, that when the Emperor created the Duchy of Poland,

largely is an exaggeration. Most of lands were conquered, although soemtimes Germans indeed allowed elite of conquered Slavic tribes join the German elite.

Emperor created Duchy of Poland - he didn't. Unless you provide any source of information, that it were Germans which conquered Poland and give it to Polish dukes. Poland wasn't created by external forces.

Boleslav sent his soldiers - yes, few guards to protect Adalbert. He indeed probably sent Adalbert to increase his influence in Prussia and maybe in future conquer it, but i haven't read anything in any book about sending soldiers. Soldiers stayed in Poland, Adalbert with few monks go into Prussia, where he indeed act quite stupidily by our standards (but not by medieval standards) and was killed.

I will delete that whole paragraph, with replacing that with (some reshaping will be needed)

: In 997, Boleslaw I Chrobry, then Duke of Poland, sent Saint Adalbert of Prague to convert the Prussians. Adalbert behaved very agressively, and when he tried to destroy some saint trees, Prussians first expelled him and warned, that he will be killed when he will return, and when he did, they indeed killed him at the Samland/Prussia?? coast.

Prussians invaded Poland hundred of times, and it wasn't like they were peacefull people invaded by those evil Poles. So, i will add also: For centuries Prussians invaded Polish lands, and in return Polish dukes organised raids to Prussia. In 1220 [...] To protect his duchy, Conrad asked Teuton Order to come, offered them Culmerland (Chelminska land). However Teutons immedietely turn to Pope, who [(installed them......]

I would have to seek more about history of Chelmno.

Next: Teutons then fought with Poland numerous wars (1308-9, 1326-1332,1409-1411, 1414,1422,1431-1435..) but they belong to history of Teutonic Order not Prussia probably(?). i don't know what death of Emperor had to do with war, war 1409-1411 was between Poland-Lithuania and Teutons, Tatars were indeed part of Lithuanian forces (some 300 of soldiers), i don't know also if it is worth mentioning so called Zwiazek Jaszczurczy (Lizard confederacy?). So In 1444 Prussian cities and knighthood organised Prussian Confederacy. Confederacy tried to appeal to Emperor, but when he decided to side with Teuton Order, Confederacy turn to Poland and asked Casimir IV for help and incorporating Prussia into Poland. Casimir IV agreed, although many from his council, including bishop Olesnicki, oppose him. In [Thirteen Years War]? Teuton Order was defeated and turn into vassal of Poland, while part of Prussia was incorporated directly into Poland. Part of Prussia receive many privileges, both political and economical (listing privileges like indygenat, privileges to Thorn (Torun) and Danzig (Gdansk) etc...)

After 1568 Duchy of Prussia, accroding to feudal law, should be incorporated directly into Poland, but instead Polish king allow Franconian branch of Hohenzollerns to take over it. The same happened in 1618.

Prussian Confederation

: In 1454, the Prussian Confederation asked for protection from the king of Poland, which is granted. The King of Poland became Prince of Prussia, the two states becoming a personal union under his crown. This state of affairs would continue until 1466 when Prussia was granted its own independent duke and the confederation became the Duchy of Prussia.

EEEE?? in 1466 Prussia was directly incorporatedinto Poland. It never received it's own duke. It was ruled initialy by king's governors, IIRC, and i don't know if Polish institutions were immedetiely introduced.

Prussian confederacy was initiated by cities _AND_ knighthood.

szopen

Isn't Prussia sort of the birthplace of the educational system now used in the United States, or at least of public education in general? I'm thinking of Johann Fichte's "Addresses to the German Nation" in the early 1800's. He wanted the state to control education so the nation could recover from Napoleon's conquest. At least according to some scattered articles I read last spring. --Wesley

Well, depends what you mean. Definetely before Prussia there was control state education (KEN - Komisja Edukacji Narodowej, Commission of National Education) was in Poland years earlier. szopen