Jewish eschatology/Talk

I don't think that Tertullian is universally regarded as a Church father. According to his wiki article, he didn't even remain within the main body of the Church, but broke communion with the "Montanists" whoever they are. Seems he was always opposed to seeing any harmony between philosophy and theology, whereas many of the Eastern fathers happily drew from Plato and other Greed philosophers. Later, Thomas Aquinas in the West drew heavily on Aristotle in another attempt to harmonize faith and reason. The point that the incarnation seems illogical to Judaism is a valid one. However, I don't think that holding up Tertullian's repudiation of reason in this way is a fair characterization of the Christian understanding of the incarnation. --Wesley

Many Catholic seem pretty sure that Tertullian is a church father. Even if he politically wasn't, his theology certainly was - and is - mainstream. I have met many Protestant Christians whose theology (in this regard) was identical to his. It still seems like a representative view of what many Christians believe. RK

His theology may be mainstream in the West, but most definitely isn't in Eastern Orthodoxy. The East does not recognize him as a saint, and his teachings tend to emphasize a legalistic slant on things. This would match up well with Augustine and much of Western theology, but is heavily contrasted with East's less legal, more relational approach. Tertullian also scorned the Greek philosophers at a time when most Eastern theologians were using Greek philosophy to explain and defend Christianity. However widely read he is in general, most Christians rely on the eye-witness accounts of the apostles, or the scriptural accounts of them in the New Testament, for their faith in the Incarnation. I've never heard of anyone suggesting that we should believe in the Incarnation because it seems illogical. (By some accounts I've just recently read, Tertullian sounds a lot like a modern day Pentecostal Fundamentalist.) --Wesley

I don't know what kind of Catholics you've talked to about Tertullian, RK, but I have never met a modern Catholic who believed in the veiling of women, to give one example, RK. Tertullian is not mainstream.

You totally misread what I wrote. I was talking about his theology. RK

He died in schism - he was a Montanist. His position on private revelation is entirely outside the bounds of the church. He is not a saint in the West. He is considered a 'Father' only in the sense that he wrote during the third century. His influence was at its high point in the 17th and 18th century in France among the Jansenists, who shared both his puritan tendencies and his practice of trusting in private revelation. I think his position vis-a-vis the Roman Church is remarkably similar to that of Origen to the Orthodox. --MichaelTinkler

You miss my point. None of these things that you mention have anything to do with the specific topic at hand. Most Christians alive today are not Saints, either. But they do have viewpoints on the trinity. Many Christians alive today have the viewpoint that I described. No one is deabting whether or not Tertullian views on other issues were acceprted. In fact, no one was talking about Tertullian at all. Rather, I was merely giving an example of a mainstream Christian concept. Everyone else seems concerned with the particular person, but they are ignoring the idea, the main point of all this. The view expressed by Tertullian on Jesus is still a very widely held belief among Chrisitians. It, thus, is representative. I fail to understand the controversy. RK

Also, regarding the resurrection of the dead, wasn't this a point of contention between the Pharisees and Sadducees? If so, is that worth mentioning in this context, or was it just a blip in history? --Wesley

I'll have to look up some info on this to be sure, but it sure is worth mentioning. RK

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Does anyone know the role of Elijah in the coming of the Messiah? I've read only New Testament talk regarding the idea that Elijah must come before the Messiah comes. This is significant to Unification Church theology, according to which the Jewish people would have recognized Jesus as the Messiah if they had seen Elijah appear and endorse him. Basically, i'm asking whether Elijah plays an important eschatological role in Judaism. Ed Poor

There is a well established Jewish tradition that Elijah the prophet never died, but was taken by God into Heaven, and that he will come back (alive) to Earth to announce the coming of moschiach (the Jewish messiah). However, none of the various Jewish principles of faith ever mention this as a belief that Jews must, or even should, maintain. It is a legend with high regard that some Orthodox Jews take literally, and that most non-Orthodox Jews are at the very least familiar with. RK

Isn't there a Passover tradition about leaving a chair empty for Elijah, in case this is the Passover that he returns? It probably doesn't bear mentioning in this article, but for what it's worth, some Christians believe this prophecy has already been fulfilled when Elijah and Moses appeared with Christ on Mt. Tabor at the Transfiguration, while others believe Moses and Elijah are the two prophets mentioned in Revelation who are yet to come (back). --Wesley

Yes, there is such a tradition. We also leave out a glass of wine for him to drink. When the children's attention is diverted, sometimes an adult takes a swig from Eliyahu's cup, and then announces "Eliyahu was here!" Little kids look in amazement! BTW, I did not know that Christians believe that Elijah and Moses appeared with Jesus; is this in the New Testament? RK

Yes, it appears in Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-10, and Luke 9:28-36. In Eastern Orthodoxy, the Transfiguration? is one of about twelve of our major feasts, and is celebrated on August 15 (I think). Moses and Elijah are thought to represent the Law and the Prophets, to show Peter, James and John (the only witnesses to the event) that Christ is about to fulfill both through his death. Also, the fact that all three were shining is thought to indicate that it is possible we shall all one day appear as Jesus did at this time: "His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light." Ok, I'll stop now, and save the rest for the appropriate subpage under Eastern Orthodoxy... :-) --Wesley