Wikipedia: Nicolaus Copernicus/Talk

Removed this part to talk and put the correct place names and map on front:

Nicolaus (or Nicholas) Copernicus (1473-1543) was a Polish astronomer of German origins who developed a heliocentric (Sun-centered) theory of the solar system. He was also a priest and a medic.

His major theory was published in the book De revolutionibus orbium coelestium ("On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres") in the year of his death 1543, even though he had arrived at it several decades earlier. This book marks the beginning of the shift from a geocentric? (and anthropocentric?) universe. Copernicus held that the Earth is another planet revolving around the fixed sun once a year, and turning on its axis once a day. The theory, unfortunately, still had some serious defects, like circular as opposed to elliptical orbits and epicycle?s, that made it no more precise in predicting ephemerides than the then current tables based on Ptolemy's model. But it had a large influence on scientists such as Galileo and Kepler, who adopted, championed and, in Kepler's case, improved the model. The book was put on the [Index of Forbidden Books]? in 1616 by the Roman Catholic Church. Galileo's observation of the phases of Venus produced the first observational evidence for Copernicus' theory.

Legend says that a printed copy of De revolutionibus was put in Copernicus's hands shortly before his death so that he could say goodbye to his opus vitae. He awoke from his stroke induced coma, looked at his book, and died peacefully.

Polish or German?

Copernicus is generally regarded as Polish, and in terms of the political geography of his time, this is undoubtedly correct. Torun, his place of birth, had passed from the suzerainty of the Order of Teutonic Knights to that of the King of Poland shortly after his father's arrival there from Krakow. However, ethnically both his mother and father were most likely of German origin. The family name can be traced to the town of Koppernigk near Neisse? in Silesia, which was inhabited by Germans in the 14th century at the time of emigration from that region eastwards into Poland. No known letter written by him was in the Polish language -- they were all in Latin or German. However, that means little, as Latin was at the time the international language of scholars and those letters in German may have been addressed to Germans and therefore written in that language.

He was definitely Polish by allegiance (in terms of the politics of the time). In 1512, when he was Canon of the Chapter of Frombork, Copernicus swore allegiance to King Sigismund I of Poland. In 1520, after the outbreak of war between Poland and the Teutonic Knights, Copernicus was a member of the Polish embassy to the Grand Master requesting restoration of Braniewo? to Poland. He also organized the defence of Olsztyn? against the Order.

/Talk

Polish or German?

He was definitely Polish by allegiance (in terms of the politics of the time). In 1512, when he was Canon of the Chapter of Frombork, Copernicus swore allegiance to King Sigismund I of Poland. In 1520, after the outbreak of war between Poland and the Teutonic Knights, Copernicus was a member of the Polish embassy to the Grand Master requesting restoration of Braniewo to Poland. He also organized the defence of Olsztyn against the Order.

I question this H. Jonat

: Why? He lived in Poland (In part of Poland called Prussia, just like others where called Great Poland, Mazovia, Little Poland- if you will see map from that period, you will see map of Masovia, and no Polonia around). He was loyal to Polish state. His language - heh! in XVIII century one of most popular Polish Patriotic songs was in German, and was written by Danziger!szopen

A, one more thing: Mikolaj or Nikolaj, both forms were allowed in Polish by that time.

I have walked many years on this planet and Copernicus was always one of the guys to admire. It is nice to know that a guy from Poland (he was born in Polish Torun, studied in Polish Cracow, and died in Polish Frombork) wrote a book that started serious science not long after Gutenberg? made publishing possible. The news that he might be a German hit me as much as if a German was to learn today that Gutenberg? was Polish! I have never seen such a claim and never thought about the language he mights speak at home, although all my knowledge indicates it must have been Polish. As for his writings, no wonder it was in Latin (lingua franca of his day, esp. in science). He had also extensive German contacts. Note that only around Copernicus's death, first literary works in Polish were published. Polish language (esp. in writing) was still a toddler in the 16th century. -- Piotr Wozniak from Poland

Copernicus is generally regarded as Polish, and in terms of the political geography of his time, this is undoubtedly correct. Torun, his place of birth, had passed from the suzerainty of the Order of Teutonic Knights to that of the King of Poland shortly after his father's arrival there from Krakow. However, ethnically both his mother and father were most likely of German origin. The family name can be traced to the town of Koppernigk near Neisse in Silesia, which was inhabited by Germans in the 14th century at the time of immigration from that region eastwards into Poland. No known letter written by him was in Polish language - they were all in Latin or German language - but native languages weren't widely used in writing at that time.
He was definitely Polish by allegiance (in terms of the feudal politics of the time). In 1512, Copernicus as Canon of the Chapter of Frombork swore allegiance to King Sigismundus I of Poland. In 1520, after the outbreak of war with the Teutonic Knights, Copernicus was a member of the Polish embassy to the Grand Master requesting restoration of Braniewo to Poland. He also organized the defence of Olsztyn against the Order.
But in any case, modern concepts of nationalism did not exist in his era, so the question is really an anachronism.

At that time many city dwellers in Poland was non-Polish ethnically and spoke German at home. Polish-or-German is ethnic, not national question, as there was no nationality at that time. Copernicus was most probably of German origins, his name is German and there isn't any prove that he even spoke Polish. That looks like a German living in Poland. -- Taw

I think that, if his allegiance was to Poland, he must be considered polish. For example, Einstein is usually cited as an American physicist of german origin, so Copernicus would be a Pole of German origin. Just my non-expert opinion. --AstroNomer

Here Einstein is usually cided as a Jewish physicis and Columbus as Italian, not Spanish, sailor. In medieval times country wasn't that important. In feudalism, countries and pseudo-countries went up and down all the time. The only thing that could be reliably traced is ethnicity.

Actually, medieval ethnicity is a problem. In the Early Middle Ages (my end of the field) one of the real research growth areas is ethnicity-building. For instance, it is now quite clear that all those Germanic tribes (Ostro- and Visigoths, Lombards, Vandals, Heruli, Franks, etc., etc.) were very fluid concepts. We always knew that the Heruli had sort of dissolved into the Ostrogoths, but now it's clear that the Burgundians and the Bavarii were entirely composite groups - and the Bavarii Dukes were all Franks. Ethnicity is no clearer in the Middle Ages than it is today. Allegiance was clear - if someone changes allegiance, they have to swear a new and public oath. The *reasons* for that allegiance may or may not be 'volk'ish. --MichaelTinkler

I am amazed to find that there is actually a discussion going on and it is not just blindly copied what almost all the modern historians for the last 50 years have been echoing.

For Nicolaus Copernicus read http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04352b.htm -Cath. Encyl. not always right, but much better than most books ( because written before WW I ).

Nicolaus never signed his name starting with - M -which he would have done if he was Polish, then he would have had the name or signed it M - Mikolaj .

He never spoke or wrote any word of Polish . He did write Latin and Greek . The official language in Prussia , where he was born, was Low German Hanseatic Platt . He was born in a Hanseatic city , that means only German language people were citizen of the city. Thorn or in Latin Thorunensis was in Culmerland ,Kulmerland . This was and is Old Prussi land . The people in the country and villages spoke old Prussian, see wikipedia Baltic, Prussian Language . His uncle , Lucas Watzenrode or Watzelrode was bishop of Ermland , that meant governor.

see the Catholic encyclopedia www.newadvent above for Ermland, independend bishopric, Culm , Silesia etc.

The allegiences were Feudal laws, pledges to an individual, and from him again to the next higher individual.

The only correct answer is , Copernicus was born in Thorn or Latin Thorun , Prussia ( Culmer Land ,later Kulmerland if you want to be more specific) and he lived and died in Frauenburg ,Prussia and Heilsberg , Prussia.

For church records from Thorn, Heilsberg,Braunsberg, Frauenburg see http://www.familysearch.com go to records-to places, type in the towm , then click on church record . You will find films taken by LDS of the original Kirchenbuecher- churchbooks.

Did the Elector or the Duke of Prussia of the Hohenzollern elector family of the Holy Roman Empire become Polish, because he gave an allegiance to an uncle (Sigismund I ), his mothers brother. ? Did the Polish dukes or kings become German , when they pledged allegiances to the German emperors ?

The people of Thorn did not become Polish , when again under the Feudal law they refused to pledge allegiance to the Teutonic Knights.

There was no state nationality , there was only citizenship. This meant if you wanted to live and work in a city and wanted to become a citizen you applied to the city council , which was the sole responsible government of a Hanseatic city. Then you became a citizen of that city , not of the city next door.

To Michael Tinkler , boy am I glad I am not writing this one .

                               H. Jonat

Is there a page in Wikipedia regarding ethnicity and nationalism in the 1400s-1500s? If so, could someone share that link? If not, some of the above might make for an interesting discussion. It appears to deserve attention as a topic. I don't feel competent to construct it, however (guess that makes me a Wikiwimp). --RjLesch

: of possibly German origins

Why "possibly" ? Is there anything that suggests otherwise ? --Taw

: Hi Taw -- yes, there are arguments to the contrary -- read the above discussion. One regular contributor claims that Copernicus was German, the majority say Polish, but that his ethnicity may have been German...JHK

Took this from main page, where Helga Jonat placed it. Looks like it says it's a map of Poland to me... JHK

Poland is to the south-west of Prussia , open the map for a look at the land of Prussia or Preussen where Copernicus was born :

For a smaller version of the Prussia map: [[1]]

large detailed prussia map [[2]]

Hanseatic city of Thorn ,( Civitatis Thorun(ensis) in Latin ) is located in Prussia, Kulmerland Culmerland (Culmigeria on the map )to the bottom left of the map . This map is from circa 1600 (published 1660) . It is also available re-published by Royal Geographic Society as "Blaeu's The grand Atlas of the 17th Century World ( Barnes & Noble).

1570 maps showing Prussia can be seen on: [[3]] T # 70 Pomerania, Marca, Prussia T # 71 Prussia T # 72 Livonia T # 98 Index A-Z of the World- Atlas , but no Polonia ???

(Have available maps of 1493 , 1539 and 1547 showing Prussia or Preussen , but not on internet. H. Jonat