There were only were few hantpainted maps before 1500 (book printing started by 1470). Schedelsche Weltchronik 1493 shows most cities and places for the first time. The first more detailed map of Prussia was not till 1539 and in 1547 by Sebastian Muenster. Give me your email and I will send a copy of that map, which clearly shows Preussen and Thorn.
Earlier maps only showed the name of the country written in the general area, no borderlines. Borders changed constantly from duke to count to margrave etc. This did not affect the Land and the people. They were not exchanged everytime a ruler changed. This was all worked out under the emperor.
Maps from 1577 do not even list Poland or Lithuania at all. It shows Livonia and Prussia (with Lithuania and Poland just written in as names , but not listed). This was at the time after the death of the last Jagiello 1570 (72?). (When a ruler died out the land reverted back to the empire, who then loaned it out to some other ruler.)
Nicolaus Copernicus never called himself Polish, nore did his contemporaries. He never signed his name M or Mikolai (Polish language for Nicolaus) . He did sign his name N. or Nicolaus. Since age of 10 he was raised and educated by his uncle Lucas Watzenrode or Watzelrode in Ermland. Ermland was an excempt bishopric. Copernicus did sign in as German at the German learning facility (uni ?) in Italy. He did write German letters. He did represent Prussia in the Prussian coin reform and wrote on this subject ( I think printed in Dan(t)zig in 1494 in any case before the Copernican treatise) Thorn , where he was born was a Hanseatic League city , it became wholly protestant. By 1642 anti-reformation brought in catholics in too.
While some areas of Prussia came under some nominal rule by the "Polish crown" (which meant under the imperial Habsburg-Jagiellos , Vasas and Wettins), none of the different Prussian lands ever where a part of Poland (even though "Polish" kings tried to annex, unsuccessfully).
Since the first official state of Prussia under the Teutonic Kinights the court or official language in all the Prussian lands was German.
See the Preussische Regesten PrUB Prussian Urkunden Record books (on internet by Stuart Jenks, 1234 giving citizenship of the empire to people of Prussia, Livonia etc).
see the church books from Thorn (unfortunately not before 1600):
LDS -http://www.familysearch.com Place search : filmed since 1920,show all church record films of Kirchenbuecher in Latin and German language (Polish titles below added after 1945 , still show films of actual Kirchenbuecher in Latin and German).
Topic Germany, Preußen, Westpreußen, Thorn - Church records
Titles Kirchenbuch, 1605-1944 Evangelische Kirche Neustadt Thorn (KrSt?. Thorn) Kirchenbuch, 1773-1920 Evangelische Kirche. Militärgemeinde Thorn
Kirchenbuch, 1600-1944 Evangelische Kirche Altstadt Thorn (KrSt?. Thorn)
Kirchenbuch, 1629-1944 Evangelische Kirche Sankt Georg Thorn (KrSt?. Thorn)
Kirchenbuch, 1677-1862 Evangelisch-Reformierte Kirche Thorn (KrSt?. Thorn)
Kirchenbuch, 1833-1868 Preußen. Armee. Infanterie Regiment 33 (Ostpreußisches Füsilier)
Kirchenbuch, 1773-1808 Preußen. Armee. Infanterie Regiment 53
Ksiegi metrykalne, 1670-1890 Kosciól rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Sw. Jakuba, Torun (Torun)
Ksiegi metrykalne, 1717-1874 Kosciól rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Sw. Marii Panny Torun (Torun)
Ksiegi metrykalne, 1642-1890 Kosciól rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Sw. Jana, Torun (Torun)
Thorn, Westpreußen, Prussia, Evang. Kirche Sankt Georgen; computer printout, christenings, 1854-1875 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Genealogical Department
For a printable version of this record click here then click your browser's Print button.
© 2000 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
I'm sorry, but none of what you have cited here makes sense as far as historical methodology goes. None of it changes the fact that, if the maps you cite were created in imperial or German lands, there will likely be a bias that reflects how the people who commissioned the map WANTED things to be. The emphasis was often not on factual truth, but on the "truth as seenby the people who pay me." This has nothing to do with snobbery, it is just how things were. Good history requires understanding the sources. Nothing you cite proves your point, because you don't take your sources in context. Please re-read what has been written on the topic of using primary sources as nauseam. If you need more clarification, we can certainly discuss it further. So far, you base most of your arguments re the entire Baltic area on faulty premises. This makes your arguments weak at best, and mostly invalid.JHK
I appreciate your attention to details and agree with you to always check all sources .
The question here is simply : what was the name of the country ?
1. What was the name of the land , that the city of Thorn (Latin Thorunensis) in Culmerland (Culmigeria) was in, when Copernicus (Nikolaus Kopernikus) was born ?
![[Home]](wikipedia.png)
![[1]](http://wwwtest.library.ucla.edu/libraries/mgi/maps/blaeu/prvssia-preview.jpg){kind=link}
![[2]](http://wwwtest.library.ucla.edu/libraries/mgi/maps/blaeu/prvssia.jpg){kind=link}
(Everyone does agree this city is since 1945 called Torun in Polish language)
2. What was the name of the country where his uncle Lucas Watzenrode(or Watzelrode) of Ermeland raised him since he was 10 years old ?
3. What was the name of the country ,where Copernicus worked in Frauenburg and Heilsberg all his life ?
4. What was the name of the country , when Copernicus died in Frauenburg in 1543.
Maps showing all locations: [[1]] prvssia
[[4]] go to : amber fisher 1539 partial map Prussia A map of 1547 by Sebastian Muenster, Basel Switzerland shows Thorn in Preussen , copy in book: "Ostpreussen Damals und heute D. Weldt ISBN 3-7921-0192-0 (amazon.com, search)"
(I condensed) and suggest that these questions are posted for anyone to answer .
In the meanwhile until someone else posts several maps from circa 1400 to 1600 in Polish language clearly showing that the land was not called Prussia , but Poland , we leave articles as is. H. Jonat
1473 19. (?) Februar
Nicolaus Copernicus( deutsch Kopernikus, er selbst unterschrieb mit lat. Copernicus, polnisch Coppernicus und Coppernic ) wird in der St.-Annen-Gasse in Thorn an der Weichsel als Sohn einer deutschen Kaufmannsfamilie geboren. Thorn gehörte seit 1466 zum polnischen Staatsgebiet, war aber eine Stadt mit überwiegend deutscher Bevölkerung.
---rmhermen
SJK, the discussion arises out of the passages in this article that imply that Copernicus was German (specifically Prussian) and how the author, Fr. Jonat, came to that somewhat unique conclusion. Following is yet another discussion of methodology and the use of primary sources...
Many thanks to rmherman for his contribution. This again leads us back to the sticky area of ethnicity vs. nationality -- I would like to see evidence other than on these pages that says that the man was not Polish. Odds are, when you look Copernicus up in any encyclopedia, the entry will say he's Polish...even if he weren't, the methodological arguments I've presented are valid...JHK
However he was not a political person, he was a human being and the fact remains that Prussia, where he was born , had the name Brus or Prussian people recorded by 850. The first histories written down were in appr 1050 by Adam von Bremen, by Christian of Prussia ca 1240 , in 1325 the "Chronicon terrae Prussiae", by Peter von Dusberg and 1340 "Kronike von Pruziland" by Nicolaus von Jeroschin.
I have asked you or anyone else to list Polish maps or any other proof ,which shows clearly ,that Copernicus (Nikolaus Kopernikus) was Polish or was born in Poland.
You have not disproven to me that he was born, lived and died in Prussia , as all the maps and written material of the time clearly show.
I have stated a list of items showing that he was Prussian and spoke German and that he was not Polish , nor was he born in Poland. (The fact that under feudal arrangements some parts of Prussia came nominally under the "Polish Crown" , did not mean, that Prussia became Polish, was Polish or anything like that).
You and MichaelTinkler have implied possible lying by mapmakers etc . You are telling me of primary sources only after 1970 ? What is all this ? Besides , YOU have not stated ANY primary sources.
When you look at American encyclopedias you get the answer Copernicus was born and died in Poland. Why ? they look at a map find Thorn or Frauenberg, which is today Poland Torun and Poland Frombork. Then they make their entry :Copernicus was born in Poland and died in Poland.
Search on internet under German spelling :"Nikolaus Kopernikus" you will find entries , that tell you he was born and died in Prussia (Westpreussen,Ostpreussen).
But under over 50 years of Allied Occupation of Germany ,all Prussian records were sealed and teachers in Germany were only allowed to teach what was authorized by the Allied Occupation powers. Thus , when a highschool in Germany today writes a nice article on Copernicus (see talk above) they follow the same method ,they generally look at what is authorized and copy it.
What are your primary sources you have used to come to the conclusion, that Copernicus was Polish or that he was born in Poland , other than current encyclopedia entries ? What is YOUR proof , that is so overwhelming, that you disregard all facts I have stated ? Where are your Polish maps showing not Prussia ,but Poland ?
Please state your proof and the primary sources . H. Jonat
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