Wikipedia: Thorn/Talk

Showing revision 12

Blaeu's ,map of PRVSSIA : [[1]]

[[2]] large map

Answer to question below When you enlarge this map , you will be able to read Culm (Culmigeria) and Thorn on bottom left of map at Vistula river. South of Prussia and Thorn is Masovia. The map is from ucla ca, do not know if we can keep it on ? I also have map from circa 1540 by Sebastian Muenster, but not on internet.

ok -- we need to figure this one out -- was it in Poland or Prussia when Copernicus was born?

The map means nothing unless it is contemporaneous with Copernicus' birth...

If you will write down your email her, I will email a map from 1547 by Sebastian Muenster from book :"Ostpreussen damals und heute D. Weldt ISBN 3-7921-0192-0 (amazon.com, search)" It shows Preussen and Thorn H. Jonat

I don't need to see the map -- as I said before, you need to understand and use your sources critically. A map done in 1547 may not show what was true when Copernicus was born -- and we all agree he was born in what was at the time Poland, I think. Also, you have to look at who the mapmaker was, who commissioned the map, and if there was a particular agenda that they were supporting. This is often true in sources from before the late 19th century, at least. I am not saying your sources are invalid just because they are old -- only that they must be used with full understanding. That is not evident in this case. JHK

: Yep, maps are not neutral documents. See this book: How to Lie with Maps, Mark Monmorier (ISBN 0226534219 (amazon.com, search)); I recommend this book, having used it in a class with great success. Here's a nice example link from American history of a flawed map: [3]. We need entries for the stub [Primary source]? and [Secondary source]? under History Basic Topics so that we can direct people there. --MichaelTinkler

Sorry , but I completely disagree , that Copernicus was born in Poland. Copernicus was not born in Poland , he was born and he died in Prussia. Every map of the time tells you the name of the country was Prussia or Preussen.

There were only were few hantpainted maps before 1500 (book printing started by 1470). Schedelsche Weltchronik 1493 shows most cities and places for the first time. The first more detailed map of Prussia was not till 1539 and in 1547 by Sebastian Muenster. Give me your email and I will send a copy of that map, which clearly shows Preussen and Thorn.

Earlier maps only showed the name of the country written in the general area, no borderlines. Borders changed constantly from duke to count to margrave etc. This did not affect the Land and the people. They were not exchanged everytime a ruler changed. This was all worked out under the emperor.

Maps from 1577 do not even list Poland or Lithuania at all. It shows Livonia and Prussia (with Lithuania and Poland just written in as names , but not listed). This was at the time after the death of the last Jagiello 1570 (72?). (When a ruler died out the land reverted back to the empire, who then loaned it out to some other ruler.)

Nicolaus Copernicus never called himself Polish, nore did his contemporaries. He never signed his name M or Mikolai (Polish language for Nicolaus) . He did sign his name N. or Nicolaus. Since age of 10 he was raised and educated by his uncle Lucas Watzenrode or Watzelrode in Ermland. Ermland was an excempt bishopric. Copernicus did sign in as German at the German learning facility (uni ?) in Italy. He did write German letters. He did represent Prussia in the Prussian coin reform and wrote on this subject ( I think printed in Dan(t)zig in 1494 in any case before the Copernican treatise) Thorn , where he was born was a Hanseatic League city , it became wholly protestant. By 1642 anti-reformation brought in catholics in too.

While some areas of Prussia came under some nominal rule by the "Polish crown" (which meant under the imperial Habsburg-Jagiellos , Vasas and Wettins), none of the different Prussian lands ever where a part of Poland (even though "Polish" kings tried to annex, unsuccessfully).

Since the first official state of Prussia under the Teutonic Kinights the court or official language in all the Prussian lands was German.

See the Preussische Regesten PrUB Prussian Urkunden Record books (on internet by Stuart Jenks, 1234 giving citizenship of the empire to people of Prussia, Livonia etc).

see the church books from Thorn (unfortunately not before 1600):

LDS -http://www.familysearch.com Place search : filmed since 1920,show all church record films of Kirchenbuecher in Latin and German language (Polish titles below added after 1945 , still show films of actual Kirchenbuecher in Latin and German).

Topic Germany, Preußen, Westpreußen, Thorn - Church records

Titles Kirchenbuch, 1605-1944 Evangelische Kirche Neustadt Thorn (KrSt?. Thorn) Kirchenbuch, 1773-1920 Evangelische Kirche. Militärgemeinde Thorn

Kirchenbuch, 1600-1944 Evangelische Kirche Altstadt Thorn (KrSt?. Thorn)

Kirchenbuch, 1629-1944 Evangelische Kirche Sankt Georg Thorn (KrSt?. Thorn)

Kirchenbuch, 1677-1862 Evangelisch-Reformierte Kirche Thorn (KrSt?. Thorn)

Kirchenbuch, 1833-1868 Preußen. Armee. Infanterie Regiment 33 (Ostpreußisches Füsilier)

Kirchenbuch, 1773-1808 Preußen. Armee. Infanterie Regiment 53

Ksiegi metrykalne, 1670-1890 Kosciól rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Sw. Jakuba, Torun (Torun)

Ksiegi metrykalne, 1717-1874 Kosciól rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Sw. Marii Panny Torun (Torun)

Ksiegi metrykalne, 1642-1890 Kosciól rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Sw. Jana, Torun (Torun)

Thorn, Westpreußen, Prussia, Evang. Kirche Sankt Georgen; computer printout, christenings, 1854-1875 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Genealogical Department

For a printable version of this record click here then click your browser's Print button.

Maps were not very accurate by todays standards till about 1800 or later. For 20 or 21st century persons to complain about inaccuracies 200, 500 or earlier seems a bit snobbish, I think. So is trying to make 15st century European countries conform to the norms of 20st century US laws on nationality. H. Jonat for a partial map of Preussen 1539 go to [[4]] then to amberfisher

Dear Helga --

I'm sorry, but none of what you have cited here makes sense as far as historical methodology goes. None of it changes the fact that, if the maps you cite were created in imperial or German lands, there will likely be a bias that reflects how the people who commissioned the map WANTED things to be. The emphasis was often not on factual truth, but on the "truth as seenby the people who pay me." This has nothing to do with snobbery, it is just how things were. Good history requires understanding the sources. Nothing you cite proves your point, because you don't take your sources in context. Please re-read what has been written on the topic of using primary sources as nauseam. If you need more clarification, we can certainly discuss it further. So far, you base most of your arguments re the entire Baltic area on faulty premises. This makes your arguments weak at best, and mostly invalid.JHK

Let me deal with only one aspect of early modern printed maps, an issue clear in the various Weltchronik type publications. They usually show us an aerial view of each city. This is before aviation was invented. The aerial view is an imaginary projection. Many historians have studied the imagery and proved that they are imaginary and cannot be used uncritically as historical evidence. If that is true for a city, which could be known fairly easily by walking around it, how much more is it true for a region or a continent? Maps from early modern Europe are NOT EASY TO USE. We are not saying that they are all 'lies', but that you need to be CAREFUL presenting arguments based on the names someone engraved on a map. --MichaelTinkler