Some links:
It's quite suprising that Western media cared more about these statues than about breaking human rights in Afganistan. Moreover, destroying statues isn't really unusual in history. For example, when communism were overthrown in Eastern Europe, most of Lenin statues were destroyed and nobody really cared.
In earlier times, new dominant religions often destroyed sacral objects of the previous one.
Another important point to note is that representational art is at best irrelevant to Muslims (ever see a Mosque? all patterns and designs... no pictures of people) so big statues that represent a real person (Buddha) would be sort of sacrilegious. Furthermore, it has been reported on NPR? in an interview with a leading Taliban official that the story behind the destruction is more complex than has been reported. According to the official, the problem arose when a Western art preservation group came to the country to do work on the statues. The Taliban said, "Great, come on in and fix the statue... but can we ask you one favor? There is this town near the statue where the people are starving and the children are dying. Could you split your budget in half, giving half to the statue and half to the children of the town?"
And the art preservation group said no way. So the Taliban blew up the statues rather than re-hear the request.
Certainly the Taliban official could have been lying or exagerating WRT to this account, but it is an interesting lesson nonetheless.
See vandalism/Talk for a comment on the statues and a link to the Taliban ambassador's statement.
I'm going to incur the wrath of Godwin's Law, I'm sure, but I have to make this comment: Oh, well, I guess Hitler had defenders in his day, too. --Jimbo Wales
"Whatever" David Byron
Anyhow, I'm sorry about that.
However, let me address some specifics. It is extremely important to have an NPOV article about the Taliban. But I think your claims are unsubstantiated and absurd. Many of us, including me, have spent far more time than 5 minutes with a web browser studying the Taliban, and reading all points of view that we can find. This includes, for me, two books, RAWA's website, the websites of various international aid groups, news reports, etc. And although I'm still very far from an expert, I can say that defending the Taliban requires a serious distortion of the facts. They're very extreme people.
Also, in the context of writing articles and slash-Talking about articles, I have no special powers or privileges. You will not be banned or anything else fr disagreeming with me. The only thing I care about is getting at the truth -- and you ranting about Americans isn't going to help. --Jimbo Wales
BTW, I wrote some of the things that were taken issue with, and as a matter of fact I learned them FAR before any of this stuff happened. also, is CNN an authoritative source? If some people think not, then how can we resolve any of this?
--alan d
The point is: it does not matter how oppressive the U.S. may be. It may be extremely oppressive in your view. This is still not reason to excuse or ignore the oppression in Afghanistan, and even more no reason for this article to 'soft pedal' the issue. David tried to suggest that people who say these things about the Taliban are just swayed by propaganda in the news, where only 5 minutes of research on the net would tell you that they aren't so bad. Well, that's just false. I don't know what David's 5 minutes of research taught him, but my study of the issue tells me that the Taliban were bad enough. --Jimbo Wales
As I said its not all that hard to find UN sites with PICTURES of girls schools in Taliban controlled Afghanistan (though most of their pages are text). I think the Swedish Commitee for Afghanistan would really like to know where all its money went to because they certainly THINK that they are funding over a hundred schools with hundreds of female students, and yes the BBC and others have run plenty of stories on them. As a matter of interest I'd like to know how many UN sites, US government sites, Taliban sympathetic/Arabic? sites or reports from independent journalists you all looked at before reaching your conclusions. Oh but sure, we all know that news is never slanted during war time or anything like that right? Maybe the US should bomb Al Jazeera again just to make sure there's no more of that awful media bias. Well I'd love to help you figure it out but I'm off to my Nazi meeting you know.
Unicef says, in 1997, "Since their military victories in the summer of 1995, the Taliban, known for their ultra-conservative interpretation of Islam, have barred girls and women teachers from the classroom and that women may not work." http://www.unicef.org/newsline/afghwarn.htm
The UN says, in 1999, that they are "Deeply concerned about the continuing deterioration of the situation of women and girls in Afghanistan, in particular in all areas under the control of the Taliban movement, as documented by the continued and substantiated reports of grave violations of the human rights of women and girls, including all forms of discrimination against them, such as denial of access to health care, to all levels and types of education, to employment outside the home and, in repeated instances, to humanitarian aid, as well as restrictions upon their freedom of movement..."
The resolution then "Condemns the continuing grave violations of the human rights of women and girls, including all forms of discriminationand violence against them, in all areas of Afghanistan, particularly in areas under the control of the Taliban"
and
"Also condemns the Taliban's denial of women's access to health care and the systematic violation of the human rights of women in Afghanistan, including the denial of access to education and to employment outside their home, freedom of movement, and freedom from intimidation, harassment and violence, which has a serious detrimental impact on the well-being of Afghan women and the children in their care..."
http://www.un.org/documents/ecosoc/res/1999/eres1999-14.htm
I'll be happy to do more of your research for you, but you're going to have to give me something more substantial. You said to look at the UN, and the UN agrees with me completely.
Try again. --Jimbo Wales
UNESCO -- http://www.unesco.org/education/efa/know_sharing/grassroots_stories/afghanistan.shtml
Did I say five minutes? Not EVEN.
The percentage of female teachers, too, has slid from 59.2 per cent in 1990 to 13.5 per cent in 1999. Of these, 96 per cent work in schools run by [international] agencies.
O.K., I found a Swedish supported project with a (1) girl's school mentioned: http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~mpeia/projectoverview.htm
Since, however, this training took place in Peshawar, it's not clear where the girls school supported by the Society of Afghan Women (including Mrs. Fatana Gailani, President of the latter) is located.
And here's one with UNICEF undertook an informal survey, which revealed more than 100 home-schools with enrolment of some 2,500 girl students in the eastern region: http://www.pcpafg.org/news/weeklyupdate/1999_Issues/1999_07_13_321.shtml
Still, this is not looking like the Taliban were friends of female education. O.K., I've putg in my 5 minutes and am not very impressed by the record. I was searching google with 'swedish' 'girl' 'afghanistan'. --MichaelTinkler
schools for women are all closed Four sources no less. And in this little chat we've added to that -- supposedly -- more from the UN. Kinda of sucks to be proved wrong I guess. Perhaps you should quickly edit the main article to say no friends of female education or do you think that would sound less than professional? How about this for an entry many western sources spread the lie that the Taliban had no education for girls that would seem to be more accurate than most of the statements on that page.
The percentage of female teachers, too, has slid from... I'm sorry I thought we were talking about the pupils not the teachers. Still now you mention it, this it does seem to contradict the "fact" that (occording to the article) there is a ban on women working outside the home (except in health care)
more than 100 home-schools shall we start a page called [More than 100]? and say that number is defined as zero when talking about the Taliban education for girls? Would any of you brain-boxes like to now hazzard a guess as to why all these sources have to this day continued to insist there is no education for girls in Afghanistan when there is ample evidence that statement is false?
Well congratulations on disproving two of the statements. I take it as a testiment to the incredible commitment to a NPOV that after finding the evidence for yourselves the main article remains unchanged and you in fact seem to insist that *I* was wrong -- to say it was false that there was no education for girls.
And just for those who missed it let's highlight this little fact shall we,
Ok? 1990? Before the Taliban turned up the majority of the schools had already been destroyed by the war. Gee, I wonder if that little old war thing might just possibly have something to do with the high unemployment rate in the country too? (70% unemployment) Huh? Ya think? Nah. They must just hate women. That makes much more sense (besides operating as another excuse for bombing civilians). Everyone knows people in foreign countries are insane anyway, right?
Don't any of you think these statements are just a little on the simplistic side? Is there ANY skepticism here? Even after proving for yourself that at least two of the most well circulated "facts" about the Taliban (no work for women, no school for girls) are false?
Ok, well I don't really care much about the Taliban one way or the other but this has been an eye-opener on the state of this project.
Seige Heil! David Byron
Hang on a sec... this is RAWA - the self-proclaimed totally Taliban-hating opposition group - and even they know that these statements about women not working and girls having no education are false. So why do they keep on repeating these statements? Wow it's almost as if they might be a biased source or something! That's incredible.
Well I'm shocked I tell you. I was always told that everything you read in the newspapers is true and that politicians never lie. David Byron -- are we having fun yet?
Question- In view of the fact that the BBC, PHR, UN, RAWA and the other sources are now known to have lied about the Taliban should they been considered a good source for all the other statements in the Taliban article?
I tweaked the statements on girls in schools to reflect that information. David Byron, do you realize that if you had simply given the additional information it would have been added?
Making sweeping claims about "lies" when in fact the article was simply overgeneralizing was very detrimental to your credibility. --Dmerrill
However, yes, the statement is a lie. There is all the difference in the world between saying that schools are banned for girls (totally false) and saying there aren't many schools (for either sex) because of 20 years of war.
Do you realise that all of you had this data from the beginning? I directed you to the ambassadors speach which says,
Similarly we don't have any problem with women's education. We have said that we want education, and we will have education whether or not we are under anybody's pressure, because that is part of our belief. We are ordered to do that. When we say that there should be segregated schools, it does not mean that we don't want our women to be educated. It is true that we are against co-education; but it is not true that we are against women's education.
We do have schools even now, but the problem is the resources. We cannot expand these programs. Before, our government numerous curriculums were going on. There were curriculums that preached for the kings, curriculums that preached for the communists, and curriculums from all the seven parties. So, the students were confused as to what to study. We have started to unify the curriculum and that is going on.
Recently we reopened the faculty of medical science in all major cities of Afghanistan and in Kandahar. There are more girls students studying in the faculty of medical sciences than boys are. But they are segregated. And the Swedish committees have also established schools for girls. I know they are not enough, but that is what we have been able to do.
Now we have established that the Western sources have lied on this issue of education of women in Afghanistan. Can you demonstrate the Taliban ambassador is lying? What I did upon reading this was check out the facts and that is what led me to the Swedish Committee for Afghanistan and numerous web pages by the UN confirming some of these facts. Seems like I have to post this because folks here don't like reading much.
Here's another quote from a british reporter (before September) http://www.lrb.co.uk/v23/n06/burk2306.htm
The repressive edicts that so outrage the West have long been the practice in most of rural Afghanistan, where 80 per cent of the population live. In the rural regions around the western city of Herat a year before the Taliban took control, there were, according to Save the Children UK, nearly 75,000 boys at school and fewer than 2000 girls. In the Afghan countryside women have never gone to school, left the village unaccompanied or chosen their husbands. There is no need to ban television - there aren't any sets.
So around Herat the proportion of girls in school was - before the Taliban - less than 3 percent. I don't see any of the articles criticising the state of girls education in Afghanistan (among those not simply lying and saying there is none) taking into account this godawful baseline. Its as if the impression they wish to present is that somehow before the Taliban there was a 50% representation of girls and now all girls are banned from schools (0%). Yes, I would characterise this as a lie. Wouldn't you? Especially when you consider who it is that is spreading this story.
Let's look at some other practises listed in the article.
Have you ever watched any clips from Afghanistan (before the Taliban left power)? You can see the women plainly going about with no mahram. How about this story from the BBC's Afganistan correspondent? http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1674000/1674146.stm
When Western politicians decry the Taleban's treatment of Afghan women, it is difficult to recognise the picture they paint. Many stories repeated as fact never happened - at least not as far as I can judge from living in Kabul for two years.
Contrast this staement in the wikipedia article,
With her comment of life as it happens,
And as for the burqa?
You know all this wouldn't be so fucked up if at least the article mentioned the things which the Taliban have ACTUALLY done which is bad, namely massacre thousands of people in reprisals for massacres by the Northern Alliance, the US's buddy-buddies. Starvation used as a weapon of war (again like the US) against the Hazaran minority. THAT is what is bad about the Taliban not some stupid dress code or an Islamic set of laws which is pretty similar to Saudia Arabia. But I do think its worth mentioning that the Northern Alliance were the first to start massacring people. I do think its worth mentioning that the numbers klilled before the Taliban were a lot larger; thousands, thns of thousands and millions of refugees. I do think its worth mentioning that they restored peace to most of the country, when no other faction could.
Generally speaking most of the reporting on the Taliban proceeds from an assumption that if anything isn't just like it is in the West it must be the Taliban's fault, when almost certainly the better explanation is thet either their traditional ways are different (difference of culture) or that 23 years of war have made normal functioning civilian life almost impossible.
I ask you - what is a good number for girls school atendance for the poorest country in the world which has just been through 23 years of unbroken civila war and invasion, has land mines all over the place, schools bombed, 70% unemployment, no money coming into the government except heroine sales which they just stopped, the biggest drought in the country for years, and millions dead or fled their homes as refugees, the country run by uneducated religious students with no government experience, trying to rebuild their shattered country, but with only 5 years in power?
What's the average figure for girls school atendence in those conditions, just so we can compare how well the Taliban are/were doing like for like?
![[Home]](wikipedia.png)