Wikipedia: Taliban/Talk

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I think we need some elaboration, external references to substantiate the list of Taliban deeds. -- css

Some links:

I added a few links to external references that give specific mention of the abuses. Don't assume that if there is no reference listed that it is erroneous; I just didn't have time to research those particular ones. -- BryceHarrington

Controversy around destroying Buddist statues

It's quite suprising that Western media cared more about these statues than about breaking human rights in Afganistan. Moreover, destroying statues isn't really unusual in history. For example, when communism were overthrown in Eastern Europe, most of Lenin statues were destroyed and nobody really cared.

In earlier times, new dominant religions often destroyed sacral objects of the previous one.

Another important point to note is that representational art is at best irrelevant to Muslims (ever see a Mosque? all patterns and designs... no pictures of people) so big statues that represent a real person (Buddha) would be sort of sacrilegious. Furthermore, it has been reported on NPR? in an interview with a leading Taliban official that the story behind the destruction is more complex than has been reported. According to the official, the problem arose when a Western art preservation group came to the country to do work on the statues. The Taliban said, "Great, come on in and fix the statue... but can we ask you one favor? There is this town near the statue where the people are starving and the children are dying. Could you split your budget in half, giving half to the statue and half to the children of the town?"

And the art preservation group said no way. So the Taliban blew up the statues rather than re-hear the request.

Certainly the Taliban official could have been lying or exagerating WRT to this account, but it is an interesting lesson nonetheless.

: given the way they behave towards other aid workers trying to feed people, I have my doubts. From what I've read the statues are quite isolated. From the point of view of Muslims and representational art (a) they have never banned other people's represenational art so long as it is not publically displayed. Thus, if the statues were isolated, they were not offensive. Islam has long banned any external display of other religion's symbols (even including the ringing of bells by Christians), but never interfered on the inside of churches or synagogues. When Islamic groups took over a building belonging to a former religion they often painted over earlier art (see Hagia Sophia, for instance) but they did not often go further than that. They never, for instance, chiselled off the Persian reliefs at the Sassanid tombs. (b) The Wahabbi style of Islam practiced by the Taliban is not just opposed to images - it is opposed to minarets (the Prophet didnt' have one) and gravestones (they 'lead to idolatry'). They even refuse to practice a normal decorative technique of mosques -- yes, the ones I've seen are covered with inscriptions of Koranic texts, except the ones that are empty. Those are Wahabbi-influenced ones. They don't like that. I forget why that would be bad, but they don't do it. They DO use Koranic inscriptions and secular inscriptions outside mosques (the new airport in Riyadh has an incredible dome with inscriptions). --MichaelTinkler

I did a little research on the Taliban for a few weeks in August, coincidentally just before they became famous. A lot of the statements made about them on the main page are false. I would definitely take any remarks made by the media SINCE September 11th with a BIG pinch of salt. I would DEFINITELY not trust statements by RAWA, many of whose claims about the Taliban can be seen to be false even from the sources they keep on their own site (RAWA's web site that is). RAWA is the self-proclaimed opposition. They are wrt the Taliban completely biased. One example: the statement that women's schools are closed or don't exist is contradicted by the UN on a regular basis. There are hundreds of schools for girls currently in Afghanistan supprted by UN or NGO agencies (with the knowledge of the Taliban when they were in government) and hundreds more that are not supported by the agencies. You can easily find photographs on UN web sites of schools teaching girls. Many statements circulated about how the Taliban treat women are exagerated nonsense. David Byron

: Documentation, please. If there is in fact a page on a U.N. site that documents that it belongs in the article. I find it hard to believe your statement, especially after seeing some of the screeds you've written already on Wikipedia, but I'm willing to look at your research. --Dmerrill

: I will provide documentation if you first apologise for that comment. Otherwise I suggest you use a search engine. David Byron

: Apologize for what, referring to your work on, for example, Feminism as a "screed"? I wasn't the only person to see it that way, just read the Feminism/Talk page. Egern used the word "diatribe". I will not apologize for expressing my opinion. And if you won't produce documentation for your claim without an apology, then I guess the article will stay as it is. --Dmerrill

: The article would be better labeled US anti-Taliban war time propaganda currently. You (rhetorically?) ask The Taliban are really goodhearted souls who love women, do you know how the Taliban originated? Why does this page contain the RAWA POV and the US POV with no balancing view from the Taliban themselves? The article even assigns intentions and goals to the Taliban based only on what their political enemies have said!! Have you ever read anything by THEM? Why do I even bother.... truthfully I haven't. I didn't even bother to update the main page.

: Please do put in their point of view. It certainly belongs in the article. --Dmerrill

See vandalism/Talk for a comment on the statues and a link to the Taliban ambassador's statement.

Here's a list of what I would call doubtful statements on the front page:

movement was characterized by young, educated uneducated surely?
withdrew their recognition because of the Taliban's refusal to hand over Saudi terrorist Osama bin Laden I suspect they really withdrew because of US pressure. Taliban's attitude to Osama (which has NOT refused to hand him over incidentally) was unchanged from three or four years back.
This has similarities to the Wahhabi branch of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia although the Taliban have taken it to extremes Really? It's pretty extreme already as I understood it.
The Taliban is decried by many in the country and around the world community as oppressive Well so is the US but I doubt that is going to be put on an encyclopedia entry for the US. Better to be specific.
While they may have led to reform of government argumentative
most appointed local leaders have no education and are barely literate Source?
some in the United States have been lenient on the human rights abuses by the Taliban Huh? Lenient? What does that imply?
Taliban did initially start out with much popular support Initially?
RAWA is a group of women inside Afghanistan who attempt to document and minimize the damage caused to women by the Taliban RAWA has existed for about 25 years now - even before the Soviet invasion. What is RAWA even doing on this page? Maybe on the Afghanistan page?
Things that have been banned in parts of Afghanistan I'm glad to see "parts". Need to differentiate between statements by the department of religious enforcement and what actually happens. The two are usually quite different and the former is what gets reported as if it were the latter.
ok the whole banned list needs sorting out...... David Byron

I'm going to incur the wrath of Godwin's Law, I'm sure, but I have to make this comment: Oh, well, I guess Hitler had defenders in his day, too. --Jimbo Wales

: I tried to address the issues you raised, but I'm not qualified to speak to all of them. However, the statement I was criticizing was the one where you said the Taliban are not as oppressive of women as believed, and girls are educated.

: (Jimbo, don't you know you can't invoke Godwin's law intentionally?) --Dmerrill

Ok I'm out of here. Very disapointing to see the propriatry attitude of so many people on this project. NPOV = supporting Hitler. Prospective new members insulted if they bring new knowledge to the project. LOL. This is a farce. And as I understand it Jimbo is some kind of administrator? Perhaps this is just an American bias with the Taliban thing? I really cannot be bothered to knock my head against a brick wall here. Not a second time. The so-called 'facts' on this article could be proven false by any idiot with 5 minutes to spare and a web search engine. If you really think that it is immoral to have a NPOV on certain issues then it would be more honest to label the pages as such, but I think the real issue here is not morality of the Taliban but the parochialism of the American contributors.

"Whatever" David Byron

: You have a browser and 5 minutes, and I would very much welcome your proving the facts as presented in the article as false. I promise you that if you can show such evidence, I will fully support its inclusion in the article. So far I've seen only unsubstantiated claims that sound outrageous. Your leaving in a huff rather than providing the evidence says to me that you don't have it.

: And, what makes you assume we're all American? We aren't, you know. --Dmerrill

: David, I'm sorry I upset you. I thought my reference to Godwin's Law was sufficient to indicate that I didn't think my response was serious. According to the most popular use of Godwin's Law, I automatically lose the debate by invoking Hitler. (And, I even lose out at ending the debate, since I tried to do it immediately.)

Anyhow, I'm sorry about that.

However, let me address some specifics. It is extremely important to have an NPOV article about the Taliban. But I think your claims are unsubstantiated and absurd. Many of us, including me, have spent far more time than 5 minutes with a web browser studying the Taliban, and reading all points of view that we can find. This includes, for me, two books, RAWA's website, the websites of various international aid groups, news reports, etc. And although I'm still very far from an expert, I can say that defending the Taliban requires a serious distortion of the facts. They're very extreme people.

Also, in the context of writing articles and slash-Talking about articles, I have no special powers or privileges. You will not be banned or anything else fr disagreeming with me. The only thing I care about is getting at the truth -- and you ranting about Americans isn't going to help. --Jimbo Wales

: I would like to make a few comments:

Information that challenges the established wisdom of what "everybody knows" to be the case is often a very good, good thing. For example, everyone "knows" that Charles Darrow invented the game of Monopoly. Well, actually he didn't, in fact he and Parker Brothers kind of stole it from the public domain, and I updated the Wikipedia article on that game to reflect the fact that he didn't invent it(although I didn't go into a great deal of detail about it, and I didn't mention just how sleazy the whole story was).
On the other hand, web browsers are great for returning information about the range of opinions that exist on a subject. It is great for knowing that there are people who believe X or Y. Unfortunately, it also features the opinions of every fringe or revisionist point of view, no matter how outlandish or unsubstantiated. So it is important to take what we find on the web with a grain of salt. Just finding "information" on the web doesn't mean it it true.
On the other hand, just because the US government says something is true, that doesn't make it so.
On the other hand, I consider the Taliban to be pretty evil.

-- Egern