Wikipedia: Speciesism/Talk

Showing revision 14

chauvinism -> sexism

: Duh. :-) Thanks AxelBoldt

Article said:

: , but radical anti-speciesism is extremely rare and probably unworkable in practice.

What is radical anti-speciesism? If Peter Singer isn't a radical anti-speciesist, what is one? -- SJK

: Ok, by analogy: We'll define racist as someone who advocates discriminatory treatment for different races, and we'll assume that the cultural milieu under discussion is actually somewhat racist (say South Africa under apartheid or a bad area of the US south in the first half of the 20th century).

: An "anti-racist" would be someone who advocates more-equal treatment for persons of all races (in a racist culture, we'd expect this to be an unpopular idea).

: A "radical anti-racist" might be someone who actually attempted to practice these views (very unpopular move).

: So - the default in our culture is "speciesism"; that nonhuman animals <> humans. Singer I would call an anti-speciesist (says that humans and nonhumans should have more-equal rights under the law). I'd say a radical anti-speciesist would be someone who strongly practiced what he/she preached on this.

: In the real world, we do see "anti-speciesists", but as I said we don't see many radical "anti-speciesists" as defined here.

: (Or; if all animals were equal to humans, would you want your sister to marry one?)

: If your sister marries, she will most definitely marry an animal. --AxelBoldt

Singer argues that animals should be treated equally to humans, in themselves. Of course, humans and animals have different needs -- it would be stupid to provide college education to animals, just as it is stupid to provide hay to humans. Humans may even in some circumstances be worth more than animals, due to their higher intelligence, etc. But Singer insists that, in themselves, animals are of equal moral importance as human beings. Singer would define himself as a 'radical anti-speciesist'.

And, as a matter of fact, Singer practices what he preaches to a great extent (he is a vegetarian.) He also might not mind his sister marrying one. (He has argued that there is nothing wrong with human-animal sexual relations.) -- SJK

: Okay, then Peter Singer is a radical anti-speciesist, and, as I originally wrote, (the position of) "radical anti-speciesism is extremely rare and probably unworkable in practice." Do you disagree with this last statement? If not, I'm going to put it back into the Speciesism entry.

: Well, I both disagree that 'radical anti-speciesism' is extremely rare -- its not just Singer, its many in the animal liberation movement, and some followers of Eastern religions (e.g. Jainism) -- and to say it is "probably unworkable in practice" is merely an opinion, at the very least it needs some evidence. -- SJK

: Well, I consider myself a "weak" anti-speciesist, and I suppose I'd say devout Jains are "strong" anti-speciesists, and that "radical" is a position beyong that.

: (Come to think of it, what I probably mean here is a functionalist (?) definition: An anti-speciesist position so strong as to be unworkable in practice is one I'd define as "radical".)

: Well, I don't agree with the concept of "an anti-speciesist position so strong as to be unworkable in practice"? I suppose a radical anti-sexist is an anti-sexist position so strong as to be unworkable in practice? And a radical anti-racist is an anti-racist position so strong as to be unworkable in practice? You either are anti-speciesist, or you aren't. Just how you are either anti-racist or not, or anti-sexist or not. I can't see how there can be degrees of anti-speciesism. -- SJK

: In many former societies (and some now) anti-sexism and anti-racism were unworkable in practice. People have been ostracized, imprisoned, and/or killed (see Ku Klux Klan) for violating these taboos. (For that matter, ask the Afghanis about sexism now).

: Let me try to rephrase. "Living as a practicing anti-speciesist is probably unworkable in any existing society". What do you think about this?

: I don't see how it is hard to live as a practising anti-speciesist... if you do not engage in acts of speciesism yourself, and do everything humanly and morally possible to discourage or prevent others from doing so, then you are a practicing anti-speciesist. Just because the rest of society may be speciesist, doesn't mean you must be. Just as, just because the rest of the society is sexist or racist, doesn't mean you must be. -- SJK

I think it is a misrepresentation to say that Singer advocates equal treatment of non-human and human animals, nor does he claim that the two groups necessarily have the same rights. He says: the species a being belongs to should have no relevance for the rights attributed to it. The (mental) abilities of the being determine the rights. So if a severely mentally retarded person retains abilities comparable to those of a pig, then he or she should be treated similar to a pig. And Singer wants that to mean that pigs should be treated as well as mentally retarded, not that mentally retarded should be treated as badly as pigs. --AxelBoldt

AxelBoldt: Notice I said "equal treatment... in themselves". The "in themselves" bit is important. Singer claims that no human is more important than an animal just because he or she is a human being. Singer believes that, in themselves (i.e. considering only their species as animals or humans, and ignoring other possibly relevant features), animals and humans have equal rights and deserve equal treatment. -- SJK