Wikipedia: Speciesism/Talk

chauvinism -> sexism

: Duh. :-) Thanks AxelBoldt

Article said:

: , but radical anti-speciesism is extremely rare and probably unworkable in practice.

What is radical anti-speciesism? If Peter Singer isn't a radical anti-speciesist, what is one? -- SJK

: Ok, by analogy: We'll define racist as someone who advocates discriminatory treatment for different races, and we'll assume that the cultural milieu under discussion is actually somewhat racist (say South Africa under apartheid or a bad area of the US south in the first half of the 20th century).

: An "anti-racist" would be someone who advocates more-equal treatment for persons of all races (in a racist culture, we'd expect this to be an unpopular idea).

: A "radical anti-racist" might be someone who actually attempted to practice these views (very unpopular move).

: So - the default in our culture is "speciesism"; that nonhuman animals <> humans. Singer I would call an anti-speciesist (says that humans and nonhumans should have more-equal rights under the law). I'd say a radical anti-speciesist would be someone who strongly practiced what he/she preached on this.

: In the real world, we do see "anti-speciesists", but as I said we don't see many radical "anti-speciesists" as defined here.

: (Or; if all animals were equal to humans, would you want your sister to marry one?)

: If your sister marries, she will most definitely marry an animal. --AxelBoldt

Singer argues that animals should be treated equally to humans, in themselves. Of course, humans and animals have different needs -- it would be stupid to provide college education to animals, just as it is stupid to provide hay to humans. Humans may even in some circumstances be worth more than animals, due to their higher intelligence, etc. But Singer insists that, in themselves, animals are of equal moral importance as human beings. Singer would define himself as a 'radical anti-speciesist'.

And, as a matter of fact, Singer practices what he preaches to a great extent (he is a vegetarian.) He also might not mind his sister marrying one. (He has argued that there is nothing wrong with human-animal sexual relations.) -- SJK

: Okay, then Peter Singer is a radical anti-speciesist, and, as I originally wrote, (the position of) "radical anti-speciesism is extremely rare and probably unworkable in practice." Do you disagree with this last statement? If not, I'm going to put it back into the Speciesism entry.

: Well, I both disagree that 'radical anti-speciesism' is extremely rare -- its not just Singer, its many in the animal liberation movement, and some followers of Eastern religions (e.g. Jainism) -- and to say it is "probably unworkable in practice" is merely an opinion, at the very least it needs some evidence. -- SJK

: Well, I consider myself a "weak" anti-speciesist, and I suppose I'd say devout Jains are "strong" anti-speciesists, and that "radical" is a position beyong that.

: (Come to think of it, what I probably mean here is a functionalist (?) definition: An anti-speciesist position so strong as to be unworkable in practice is one I'd define as "radical".)

: Well, I don't agree with the concept of "an anti-speciesist position so strong as to be unworkable in practice"? I suppose a radical anti-sexist is an anti-sexist position so strong as to be unworkable in practice? And a radical anti-racist is an anti-racist position so strong as to be unworkable in practice? You either are anti-speciesist, or you aren't. Just how you are either anti-racist or not, or anti-sexist or not. I can't see how there can be degrees of anti-speciesism. -- SJK

: In many former societies (and some now) anti-sexism and anti-racism were unworkable in practice. People have been ostracized, imprisoned, and/or killed (see Ku Klux Klan) for violating these taboos. (For that matter, ask the Afghanis about sexism now).

: Let me try to rephrase. "Living as a practicing anti-speciesist is probably unworkable in any existing society". What do you think about this?

: I don't see how it is hard to live as a practising anti-speciesist... if you do not engage in acts of speciesism yourself, and do everything humanly and morally possible to discourage or prevent others from doing so, then you are a practicing anti-speciesist. Just because the rest of society may be speciesist, doesn't mean you must be. Just as, just because the rest of the society is sexist or racist, doesn't mean you must be. -- SJK

: Well, it comes down to a distinction between what we feel in our hearts and what we do in the streets. I mean, really, Singer's announcement of his views on the subject have hardly gone without comment!

: (And again, a person living in some regions of Afghanistan in the last decade really did have to live a sexist lifestyle regardless of their personal views [or be punished for their beliefs]. People in some parts of the USA in the past had to conform to racist lifestyles regardless of their personal views [or suffer the consequences].)

: Tell me then -- what speciesist actions is Singer, say, forced to perform by his society? How does his society force him to live a speciesist lifestyle -- SJK

: Off the top of my head - sex with persons of other races has historically been illegal in many jurisdictions. Human-animal sex is currently illegal in many places.

: It is currently legal everywhere that I know of to eat nonhuman animals and to use parts of them as material for clothing, drinking cups, hat-racks, etc. It is nowhere legal (that I know of) to treat human beings in this way.

: How does the legality of eating nonhuman animals, using them for clothing, or so on, make it impossible for someone to be anti-speciesist? Just because the law lets you be a racist, doesn't mean you have to be one. One can not eat or wear animal products -- there is no law saying you must eat meat, or wear leather shoes, or anything like that.

: Again, how does the banning of human-animal sex make it impossible for you to be a practicing anti-speciesists? Its not you who is being speciesist here -- its the law. And even if one accepts that having sex with animals is not worse than having sex in humans, it doesn't follow that one wants to do it -- just like how it is possible to support gay rights and be straight.
: And society may draw distinctions and expect us to conform to them, but does it force us in any way to personally act in a speciesist manner? Society may allow, or even encourage, us to be speciesists; but it is entirely possible to be an anti-speciesist in practice today. -- SJK

: Hmm, let's try this: Believing that it's ok to eat animals but not ok to eat people is speciesist. Yes or no?

: Yes, believing that is speciesist. But just because society as a whole believes it, doesn't mean any individual has to. It is entirely possible to not believe it. It is entirely possible to practice anti-speciesism, by not believing that and by publicly opposing that. -- SJK

: Ok. One possible anti-speciesist view would be: "It is ok to eat animals, and equally ok to eat people." I believe we would find that examples of people practicing this view, or even seriously advocating it, are "extremely rare and probably unworkable in practice". Comments?

: Yes, that would be an anti-speciesist (or maybe more accurately non-specieist) view. But calling it 'radical' implies that it is somehow more anti-specieist than the much more prevalent view that it is wrong to eat both humans and animals; when in reality it is no more anti-speciesist than the more prevalent view. And yes, such a 'radical' view would be "extremely rare and probably unworkable in practice." But what relevance has this got to the article? A 'radical' anti-racist view is that "it is okay to lynch black people, and equally okay to lynch non-black people" -- and that is indeed a radical view that would be "extremely rare and probably unworkable in practice" -- but does it deserve mention in an article on racism? I don't think so. Likewise, "it is okay to rape women, and it is equally okay to rape men" is a radical anti-sexist view which would be "extremely rare and probably unworkable in practice" -- but does this view need to be mentioned in an article on sexism? No, of course not. Then likewise the 'radical' view you mention above need not be mentioned in an article on speciesism. -- SJK

: Jeez, I can't believe we've managed to drag this conversation out this long! :-) What I originally meant was: "Society treats humans and non-human animals differently. Some people say they think humans and non-human animals should not be treated differently. But in practice, really, really treating humans and non-human animals exactly the same is rarely encounted and probably unworkable."

: In the event that you want to continue this discussion, do you really disagree with any of this?

I think it is a misrepresentation to say that Singer advocates equal treatment of non-human and human animals, nor does he claim that the two groups necessarily have the same rights. He says: the species a being belongs to should have no relevance for the rights attributed to it. The (mental) abilities of the being determine the rights. So if a severely mentally retarded person retains abilities comparable to those of a pig, then he or she should be treated similar to a pig. And Singer wants that to mean that pigs should be treated as well as mentally retarded, not that mentally retarded should be treated as badly as pigs. --AxelBoldt

AxelBoldt: Notice I said "equal treatment... in themselves". The "in themselves" bit is important. Singer claims that no human is more important than an animal just because he or she is a human being. Singer believes that, in themselves (i.e. considering only their species as animals or humans, and ignoring other possibly relevant features), animals and humans have equal rights and deserve equal treatment. -- SJK

What is one to make of a philosophy that looks ideal on paper but is impracticle in implementation?