Larry, I think part of the reason may be that Wikipedia is getting older, and more maturer. When I for instance first started out here, I gave more heed to what you said, since I hadn't learned the ropes yet; now I've been around long enough, I certaintly consider your opinions, but I don't feel as bound to go along with you as I used to. I think that is just historically inevitable. I guess other people around would be the same.
I think with any collaborative project, inevitably participants will a lot of time discussing policy issues. And besides, Wikipedia is a community -- we are writing an encyclopedia, which will always remain our central goal, but so long as we don't loose sight of that goal (and I don't see any signs we are) we should be free to take short diversions now and then. I think that these tangents, and also internal Wikipedia politics, are important for creating a sense of Wikipedia-community, since they constitute shared experiences; and shared experiences are the foundation on which any community is built. -- SJK
I would gladly donate space to anyone who wants to preserve some vandalism for the sake of "history", on a different server. But Geocities offers free web space already, so that's probably a good place for it. --Jimbo Wales
Most of the other wikis usually suggest depositing their cruft onto Wikipedia. Don't be so arrogant.
As to the second, I think we have spent way too much time on Wikipedia politics lately, frankly. That's one main reason why I wrote this essay. Experience with multitudinous failed projects and poisoned communities points up the truth of this. I don't think we have gotten sidetracked by projects so much as by attitudes and personal politics.
As you can see, I share Jimbo's view of navel-gazing. --LMS
Counter-example to your statement that no great work has ever been created by a committee, Lee: The King James version of the Bible. I'm not even a Christian and I still consider it one of the three most important pieces of literature in the English language.
On the other hand, that's the only example (unless I'm allowed to include the OED and the Britannica too). But it can be done, and it's worth noting that we have a tool unlike any in history at our disposal: wiki. -- Paul Drye
Also, while I'm quite happy with Larry & Jimbo having some sort of leadership role, I don't like the idea of a Wikipedia policy of "...Jimbo and Larry win. Period... Have some balls, guys: you're in charge, don't be afraid to say so. Anyone who can't handle that isn't part of the community." They have a special status of leadership, but I'd view it more as primus inter pares (first among equals) than as some kind of authority to tell us what to do. (Jimbo has a special kind of authority insofar as its his server and domain name we are using, but that isn't quite what I am talking about.) -- SJK
The ultimate check-and-balance is the threat of a fork. If Jimbo and/or Larry get entirely out of hand, anyone is free to take the GFDL-licensed content of Wikipedia and start another project (with appropriate link-backs to the source until such articles are rewritten). Until then, leaving the ultimate decisions for this project in one or two people is entirely appropriate. Server space is pretty cheap.
I do, by the way, concede your points that the KJV Bible is a marvellous work by committee, and that an encyclopedia project is inherently more distributable than a piece of software. The "vision" of the KJV, though, was already constrained by the nature of the project, so it would have been difficult for too many differences to arise there. It wasn't really a "creative" work at all. I suspect, further, that anyone who had a major disagreement with the King himself quickly found himself off the committee. :-) --LDC
A full fork is really impractical. It will cost a lot of money just for the bandwidth, and charitable donations will drop to nearly nothing if there is confusion on which version will survive. You'd kill both projects.
It's also hypothetically possible that if things get out of hand, you will be prevented from acquiring the database before you are denied access to the site. Potentially everyone could be denied access as well (turn off the machine). Of course, this would require Nupedia to be complete jerks, but this is the emotional investment factor that is so difficult to overcome, and the reason why the strongest attacks come from community members.
The real check in balance is obsolescence. If WikiPedia becomes mired in political hell, then no one will use it, and it will become obsolete. It already faces a large amount of pressure from the rest of the Internet (i.e. Google), and it's already crippled in usefulness by it being a mere encyclopaedia (i.e. a mere synopsis of more detailed information). Obsolence would doubly suck because that is entirely preventable. -- SunirShah
This isn't an issue about who's right and who's wrong. It's an issue about who makes the decisions and how long I ought to engage in a debate in order to justify a controversial decision. You can, theoretically, debate points ad nauseam I've given up discussing. This is basically how I've approached the NPOV debates. --LMS
In the real world, the reason we have democratic means for removing people in charge is to stop any damage they might do to the community without the cost of revolution. Supposing Jimbo/Larry? did go haywire, the negative effect on Wikipedia would be much less if they were voted out than if the project forked. (Of course, since Jimbo owns the servers he could just ignore the vote, but at least it might serve as some sort of 'official censure'; i.e. it would be more likely that people would accept it than if some faction just decided for forking...) -- SJK
Yes, they could leave.
Larry, you are paid to do a job here. So do it. If vandalism is a problem, get rid of it. When there is a clear troublemaker wasting your time and Jimbo's money, block them. Not every is going to like that, but ya know, not everyone likes you here anyway. I am not sure I like you :) So whats the difference? Why lose any more sleep over it? Do what you're paid to do so that the rest of us can enjoy this place. And if it forks, whoopdedoo. Good luck to them. You do what you are paid to do here, which includes laying down the law from time to time, and wikipedia will continue to thrive. In closing, let me remind you that "work is work", and sometimes its just that. Not always fun.
For the record, I'm not sure I like you either--since you're anonymous. :-) --LMS
I have no problem with the first part (provided we can fork the project if things get really out of hand), but I think the second part makes no sense. Look, I've been the leader of several volunteer based organizations, and my experience is that leaders are criticized, leaders are vulcanized, and leaders have to take shit the grunt's don't have to. From my perspective, that's just what is to be expected since they actions of leaders affect lots of people important ways. If you want to be a leader, you are going to have to deal with people calling you a dick, and even making up egregious lies about you. You don't have to like it, but you can't stop it, and you shouldn't even try, because you?ll only make things worse. That said, I think lots of people should cut you and Jimbo some slack, you are both clearly trying to do the "right thing" and for that you deserve congratulations.
I'd also like to ask some folks who support Jimbo and Larry to deal appropriately with attacks against them.
As far as elections are concerned -- come on now, this is a commercial project run by a company owned by Jimbo. Perhaps it would be better if it were a non-profit, but it is what it is, and nobody elects the owner of the company, and no election dictates how he should spend his money or even how he should delegate his authority. Even if elections were held, we'd all know that at bottom they don't really mean anything, as Bomis pays the darned bills.
Is this a commercial project run by Jimbo/Bomis?? I don't really think so -- sure, they might make some money out of it eventually, and good luck to them, but I don't believe that at the moment they are earning a cent. I suspect that wanting Wikipedia/Nupedia? to succeed in itself, even if they don't make money out of it, is at least as important.
And I'd myself admit that since Bomis pays the bills, ultimately they are in control (unless one can find someone else willing to pay for them...) But that doesn't mean elections are useless.
Elections give moral authority to the one elected. And since I'm not proposing we elect anyone other than Larry or Larry/Jimbo?, they would add to their authority, not decrease it. The other point is that it would make some people (e.g. me) more happy with the idea of them exercising some kind of authority if they were elected. (Finally, I'm getting sick of that word -- authority! -- it just sounds so ugly.) -- SJK
And it should be noted that LMS has requested that I delete the Destroy article, so he feels that the raising of hell should not necessarily be preserved.
I disagree strongly with Jimbo that the Wikipedia interface is inappropriate for meta-discussion, and I'm glad that Larry disagrees (at least in action; his essays are great). One of the great things about Wikipedia is that it's naturally inclusive; mailing lists are naturally exclusive. In fact, I'm thinking of working on ways to better integrate the mailing list with Wikipedia, so that we may be able to get the best of both worlds.
In regards to the essay; I think Larry has a bad habit of resorting to rhetorical sloppiness, using loaded terms like "anarchy" and "partisan" to paint the actions of others with a wide brush. Wikipedia had been an experiment in limited anarchism, in regards to Larry's original conception of his role (see Simon J Kissane/Role of Larry Sanger). I had been operating under the assumption that was how he still saw his role. Now that change has been clarified, and Wikipedia is an experiment in some other system.
It seems that the title is a deliberate rewording of a phrase I used on Destroy and Build: "Wikipedia is a noble attempt at a limited anarchistic society". People, including Larry and Gareth Owen, have construed this to call me an anarchist. I'm not. I think anarchism is too idealized to work in the real world, though I appreciate the basic principles of anarchism (see [this definition]--an anarcho-capitalist has dominated the Wikipedian pages).
As I discuss this, it may make it seem like I have a strong antipathy toward LMS and Jimbo; rather, I have a deep respect for them. They're both intelligent, principled, and idealistic. My criticisms are not criticisms of them or their motives but simply of certain actions or consequences of such actions. --TheCunctator
I guess it does take less time to just call me an anarchist, write a few vague dismissive comments, and delete content because you don't like it. It would be interesting if you ever bothered to back up your attacks ("nonsequiturs, ignoratio elenchis, misattributions and misunderstandings, and other problems") with specifics. --TheCunctator
I utterly reject your assertion that I am one of the "usual suspects" who defends anarchy, and who constantly calls your actions into question. I strongly believe that a project like Wikipedia needs a leader who keeps things running and makes the final decision on important matters, and you, Mr. Sanger, are that leader. So let's not make false characterisations here.
In this particular case, I simply questioned the wisdom of deleting content on a personal page without any discussion. Let me be clear on this: I do not hold the position that personal pages are the property of their creators and are completely off-limits to editing. If someone starts throwing up copyrighted material, or starts posting essays on why every other person on Wikipedia is an idiot, I have no problem with removing that material. If the person doesn't like it, he can get his own server; we're making an encyclopedia here. The material that you deleted didn't fall into that extreme a catagory (although I do believe that it serves no useful purpose, and is very likely harmful); a simple request to remove it, along with the reasons why, should have been given directly to the poster before removing it by force.
More generally, you run the show. That's your job, and I'm glad that you've come to realize your position (as opposed to your "I'm just an ordinary Wikipedian" view a month or two ago). Make no mistake, without you (or someone capable and empowered to do your job), Wikipedia would fall flat on its face. As leader, you can't brush off issues you personally don't consider important with the excuse that you have real work to do. You have to herd the cats, and since we're a pretty diverse bunch of felines, it's not an easy job. Of course, you also have to pick your battles. I encourage you to pick the issue of personal page deletion as one of those battles. My suggestion is that we draw up some guidelines for personal pages; nothing elaborate, but something along the lines of your page isn't yours in an absolute sense, no copyrighted material, blah blah blah. You, of course, have the final word (so to speak) on what violates these guidelines. --STG
Thanks, and I am sorry for the "usual suspects" remark. --LMS