Moved: However, this claim is not consistent with modern biological understanding, which considers natural selection to be a critical component of speciation.
- Which definition of NS are you using? A+B or just B?
Yo, LDC, I didn't mean to step on you. Let's cooperate. I want to make this page conform to the Wiki nature, and I could use your help. --Ed Poor
I'm curious. What exactly is the difference between ID and the scientific theory of evolution then? Obviously that God is behind it, but in the realm of the physical are there any differences? In other words, if ID accepts mutation, followed by natural selection, resulting in speciation, and only adds the bit that God caused the mutation, does that pretty well sum it up? If so, then ID is basically the acceptance of evolution except for belief that God is behind it. --Dmerrill
- If someone who is as unqualifed as Crocker say I am may deign to answer ... (Oh, you were asking ME!)
- My understanding of ID is speciation means new species arise somehow. It doesn't specify mutation as the method. It does say there is evidence of intelligence at work, rather than random forces such as cosmic ray bombardment. I might be misusing the word 'speciation' though.
- Darwinists say that any of several natural random forces followed by a non-random process governs evolution. ID rejects random forces as the cause of new species arising and agrees that, once arisen, they are subject to the non-random process of natural selection.
- Confusion arises when Darwinists (sorry, it's just a handy word...no offense meant) imply that Natural Selection is both (a) the cause of new species arising and (b) the non-random process whereby successful species persist and unsuccessful ones perish.
- (Whew, hope that's halfway clear now.)--Ed Poor
Actually, Ed, you're more likely to know about this particular school of beliefs than I am,
so I'm happy to let you write most of this particular article, and will only edit things that
are clearly false. I've spent much of my life studying real science, so I'm not an expert on
the religious stuff. --LDC
- The reason I disagree with Ed so much is that I'm a scientist who grew up in the southern US. This means I was exposed to all of this stuff as a child, and I also have an interest in the history of science, which involves a lot of this kind of thing. Ed seems to have a somewhat limited scientific background, which is fine, but makes it difficult for him to hit the NPOV from the get go. GregLindahl
- I concede that hitting NPOV will be hard for me, inasmuch as I fail in my conscious attempt to seperate bias from real knowledge. I'm actually fairly good at detecting bias within myself, or I would never learn anything. But I'll rely extensively on you and LDC to point out my bias when I miss it. --Ed Poor
- Ask yourself whether it is fact or opinion. All religious beliefs are opinion by definition. If it's an opinion, the npov rule is that you attribute it to someone or some group, thus placing it in context. So, no matter how much you believe "Foo is the best Bar!", you would write it as
- "[A few|some|many|most|all] [Christians|people|Americans] [believe|think|accept that|say that] foo is the best Bar. However, [a few|some|many|most] [ditto] believe it is not."
- That a group of people believe an opinion is a FACT, but the opinion is still an OPINION. Hope that helps. --Dmerrill
The helpful tone helps, I'm just not sure I can do it (shrug). Elsewhere on Wikipedia I've seen extensive debate as to what is to be labelled fact, and how strong or numerous objections must be to qualify for inclusion. Anyway, I think I have a good chance of hitting NPOV on ID. Ed Poor
- But if I miss NPOV on Darwinian evolution, you gotta keep putting me back on track. I'll get it eventually. Ed Poor
I was under the impression that a major underlying component of ID theory was "irreducable complexity". That is (if I understand it correctly), the notion that there are certain complementary developments in cellular evolution that couldn't have happened independently of each other. I don't subscribe to this belief, and obviously don't know enough to explain it, but I was surprised not to see any mention in the article. -
D
- Another surprise is lack of the term [Secular humanism]?... sheesh. GregLindahl
Ed, I think you misunderstand Darwin's theory. He never proposed a method by which variations occur, as that was well outside of scientific knowledge at that time. He only proposed natural selection. So saying ID is contrary to Darwinian evolution is incorrect. I realize a lot of Creationists make that error, but I've read all of Darwin's work myself and he states quite clearly that he doesn't know how the variations are introduced. --Dmerrill
- Ed also doesn't understand Darwin's theory: variation PLUS natural selection. GregLindahl
Actually, Ed's present text is a pretty good statement of the difference bewteen ID and the present neo-Darwinian synthesis. It is true that Darwin himself didn't know the variation mechanism (or even the inheritance mechanism since the discovery of DNA was decades away), but we do now. It doesn't much matter to the overall theory itself, but we do have a present scientific understanding that variation is caused by the various means Ed mentions. I would leave the text, but clarify that ID doesn't so much disagree with Darwin as it does present threory. --LDC
- Gee, thanks! My fan!!
- BTW, sorry to Dmerrill whose edit I just overwrote. There's gotta be a better way of coordinating cooperative edits. I'm schizophrenic enough trying both to argue for ID (which I believe) and maintain the NPOV (which I agree is a MUST for an encyclopedia). --Ed Poor
Where it departs from the commonly accepted biological view is in the belief that the variations which are subsequently acted upon by Natural Selection are not random, but guided by the hand of God.
- I think this is the opposite of ID, where'd you get this?--Ed Poor
- Would you like to (a) do this together with e-mail, or maybe (b) create an ID_draft page and edit each other's work? I'm okay with either, leaning to the latter. --Ed
- Um, that was what I got from reading what you wrote. I must have misunderstood it. But don't bother with a draft, just edit what I have. Or at least maintain my explanation of the scientific theory, as I believe you do (did) not understand it. --Dmerrill
- Actually, after reading what Ed wrote, it sounds to me like what ID claims is that natural selection can cause small changes to occur within a species, but it denies that these changes can accumulate enough to produce major changes. Why there is this mysterious barrier that prevents changes from accumulating over time beyond some mysterious limit--that is not explained. Some specific examples (like the eye, which is an common example also cited by creationists) are cited to bolster the claim that certain kinds of major changes can't occur without divine intervention, but those are only specific example and I don't see any expression of an overriding principle that explains why or how the cumulative effect of changes within a population just suddenly stops after a certain point (thus preventing new species from occuring). The reality is, especially after seeing the example of eye in this draft, that I don't really see much of a fundamental difference between ID and creationism. They seem to share a lot of the same arguments and (with all due respect to you, Ed) seem equally bogus and unscientific. -- Egern.
- The biggest difference between the two branches of creationism over the issue of whether any new species came into being after God originally created life. ID accepts the fossil record, "Sudden Creationism" rejects it. With the poll LDC cited showing 89% of Americans split almost equally on this issue, I'd say it's a significant difference -- at least to them.
- The bogus and unscientific remark doesn't bother me. Explain mercilessly and boldly put it in the critique section. I don't care if most of the ID article is critique, as long as the ID article explains ID. Ed Poor
- Okay, after further looking at this, I am not clear on whether ID even accepts the existence of small cumulative changes within a species, since Ed has made some references to natural selection as some sort of "weeding out process" once a species has been created. I don't think there is a clear understanding here by ID of what natural selection is. Is ID claiming that the only mutations or changes that occur are those that create new species? Is ID denying the existence of small and new changes occuring over time within populations but which don't actually create a new species?
- Darn good questions, I'll try to find out over the next week or so. That's what I like about interacting with people who are smarter than me, I find out how ignorant I am. Ed Poor
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