Talmud/Talk

Someone ought to frame this article with some dates. Right now it's floating in one big moment. --MichaelTinkler

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This article begins with "The Talmud, also known as gemara, is a collection of Jewish scripture". But aren't the Talmuds the Mishnah plus gemara? Gemara printed by itself without the associated Mishnah wouldn't be a Talmud. Right? -- SJK

If the world made sense, you'd be absolutely correct. But religious Jews have their own slang, sometimes jokingly called Frum-speak, or "Hebronics", and this slang is used very consistently. A gemara printed by itself wouldn't be a Talmud; however, one never sees this in real life. The Mishnah is only about 10% of a Talmud, so it just is easier to print them both together. Gemara became, in practice, a synonym for the whole Talmud. You may note that Jews also have this same terminology problem when it comes to the word "Torah". it should mean the five books of Moses (and often does), but it also is used as a synonym for the combined written law (the entire Hebrew Bible) AND the entire corpus of classical rabbinic exposition on the Oral Law (the Mishnah, and both Talmuds. Further, Torah is also used forRK

Maybe we should note something like that in the article. I've always thought of Talmud as Mishnah+Gemara, but then my exposure to Judaism is limited to having read some books. But if that's the impression I got from reading books, doubtless others may get that impression also. -- SJK

Yes; I should try and note this in the main text of the article! And you are correct - Talmud IS Mishna and gemara, and I hate it when people refer to the entire Talmud as "the gemara" for precisely this reason. But Orthodox Jews do this very often; Conservative Jews tend to do this less often. I guess the ambiguity arose because whenever someone reads the Talmud, 90% of the time it is the gemara portion of it that they are reading, so these terms (unfortunately) became synonomous. But if you want my real beef with Judaism (and I am a religious Jew) just try and get me started on anthropomorphic language. The medieval Jewish scholars like Maimonides and Gersonides were more advanced in many ways than most Jewish laypeople today. Christians don't have the same problem, because for them Jesus really is part of the Trinity, and Jesus was a human, so it isn't blasphemy for them to have anthropomorphic views of God in a literal sense. According to many rabbinic authorities, this view of God is supposed to be strictly forbidden - but in practice, Jews have anthropomorphic views of God almost as much as Christians do. I understand that this is a a natural thing for people to do, and the Bible itself certainly portrays God in such terms, but the glaring difference between later Jewish theological texts and actual beliefs held by laypeople bothers me. Sometimes I think some of my co-religionists are worshipping "God, the friednly heavenly miracle caterer that you can talk to!", while I am philosophically contemplating the groundsource of reality. Then again, they probably think of me as a Deist, and not a Theist! RK

Jews also have this same terminology ambiguity when it comes to the word "Torah". This word used to mean only the five books of Moses (and still often does), but it eventually became used as a synonym for the combined Written Law (the entire Hebrew Bible) AND the entire corpus of classical rabbinic exposition on the Oral Law (the Mishnah, and both Talmuds). Further, Torah is also used to denote the entire collection of Jewish law in its theoretical totality, which includes the Written Law, the entire corpus of classical rabbinic exposition on the oral law, and and ALL commentaries on that, from Talmudic times to the present! Thus, the word "Torah" may be used as a synonym for all of religious Jewish thought! One can usually figure out that meaning intended by the context, but that doesn't make it any better in my book. I prefer using more precise terms; Professor Jacob Neusner refers to the "Dual Torah" of the Jews, meaning the written law and the classical expositions on it. Since he uses this term consistently in his published works (over 400 of them!) it is easier to figure out than just the generic word "Torah". RK