emperors stayed here. - Do we mean that they all lived here or just visited once in a while? --rmhermen
- It must mean the latter, but it's after my period. sounds a lot like 'George Washington slept here,' and I guess it should be folded into the idea of the Diets more thoroughly--MichaelTinkler
I think your "careful reconstruction" addition is redundant, Michael. I re-wrote the original entry's "medieval" to "medieval-style" because I had exactly the same concerns as you ("Over here we have the authentic citizenry, who were imported via time machine shortly after the war. Mind the ones with the plague."). It's just
in the style of a medieval town
to some extent. --
Paul Drye
- too subtle for my tired eyes to have caught. I was thinking of the specific parallel in the Warsaw entry, I suppose. --MichaelTinkler
The HR empire did not have one single capital city. Several cities were imperial cities, that means, they were directly under the emperor. Different emperors used different cities, such as Aachen, Quedlinburg, Nuernberg, Regensburg , Frankfurt, Prague, Vienna. There was not one court. The emperor went from city to city to hold court etc. Emperor Sigismund was born in Nuernberg, died in Znaim.
H. Jonat
Is there a state of Franconia? I thought Nürnberg was now in Bayern?
In my first entrance I wrote, that Nuremberg belongs politically to Bavaria since 1806.(Someone erased it).
Nuremberg is in the territory of Franconia. Franconia consists of Upper , Lower and Middle Franconia.
The people and the language is Frankish, not Bavarian. If you want to read up on land , people and customs, you buy a book on Franken.
H. Jonat
I think that you mean the dialect is Frankisch (Fraenkisch?), rather than Bavarian. In English, we would say the dialect is Franconian, to differentiate from Frankish, i.e., having to do with the Franks. Both Franconian and Bayerisch are German dialects, not languages. Within those regions, there are also many other sub-dialects. I will add something about Franconia's present political location, since it would be nice to be accurate...of course, nice can also mean accurate, so maybe I just mean "nice"...
JHK
Languages spoken within the same country are called dialects. Outside of the country it is called a different language. Sample: Dutch, Hollandish used to be a dialect of German, today it is classed as a different language.
- This is incorrect. Dialects are independant of political entities such as countries. --STG
The people in Franconia (Franken) speak Frankish (Fraenkisch).
For some of the different dialects see: http://www.christusrex.com/www3/ethno/germ.html#FRK
and for Fraenkisch see http://www.christusrex.com/www1/pater/JPN-frankish.html
Franconia consists of Ober - Mittel and Unter-Franken and you will find different Frankish dialects. Since it belongs politically to Bavaria , you will also find Bavarian speakers mixed
in . Since all remaining Bundeslaender of the 1949 Germany have 20 to 30 percent refugee inhabitants from Germany east of the Oder/Neisse? and Standard High German is taught in school,
you now have many more combinations of dialects spoken. This goes for all Bundeslaender.
I go back to what I first wrote in the first entrance, the people in Franconia tell you that they are not Bavarians, but they are Fraenkisch (not Franconian).
Somewhere earlier someone asked about Wittelsbacher. They are not Frankish, they are Bavarians.
H. Jonat
- yes, but was the ruling family of Bavaria in 1806 still the Wittelsbachs (notice the English language version of their name)?
Maximilian I Joseph Wittelsbach, born 1756 in Mannheim (today Baden-Wuertemberg) ,Germany acceded 1799 as King of Bavaria , was also Duke of Zweibruecken. Last Wittelsbach ,Ludwig III , reigned till 1918, when all German rulers had to resign , due to WW II .
When you translate the word "Fraenkisch" into English you get "Franconian". About the language the ethnologue site calls it Frankish but other sites call it Franconian. See
http://www.orbislingua.com/ead.htm.
Ethnologue , Barbara F. Grimes, Editor Institute of Linguistics calls it Frankish , plus Mainfrankish (Franconian) .christusrex calls it Frankish , The Frankish people call their own language Frankish . Franconia is the latin version ,which is oftentimes taken over by English
as in case of Pomerania (German Pommern, language Pommersche dialect).People used to, but today they do not call themselves in Latin titles any more. (People in Cologne (Koelln) do not call their language Colonia Agrippina , they speak Koellsch).
My main point was to point out ,that the people do not consider themselves Bavarians, nor speak it, even though politically they belong to Bavaria .
From the comments, it is obvious that the wiki majority had no idea.
Callin it Franconian language in English would technically probably not be incorrect. However it is misleading. No other country calls John F. Kennedy Johannes Kennedy or Jan Kennedy.
When available the correct native name should be used with the English version, but this is my opinion.
H. Jonat
Sorry, but in this case your opinion leads to the misapprehension that the dialect of German spoken in Franconia is the same dialect spoken by the Franks -- at least, that is what it implies in English. This is most likely not the case -- especially as there must be lots of dialects under the category of Fränkisch, including dilects of Upper Franconia which, under most, if not all, of the Carolingians (who were Franks), partially belonged to Thuringia.
JHK The Bavarian question is beside the point -- in your first version, you neglected to mention the political connection to present-day Bavaria.
When you read my first entrance entrance Nr 5 you will see that I stated that under Napoleon Franken came politically to Bavaria . No one today speaks the same language that their ancestors spoke 1000 or 2000 years ago, not even 200 years ago. Language changes constantly.
The Frankish know, why they call their language Frankish. H. Jonat
Since this is an English-language encyclopedia, would you mind terribly foregoing the obscure and circuitous arguments, and just trust those of us who know WHAT THE TERMINOLOGY YOU USE MEANS TO AN ENGLISH-SPEAKER? I don't doubt that there are many nuances that fraenkisch conveys to the people of Franken -- but they just don't exist in English. Most of what you write sounds to English-speakers like you are trying to prove that things that happened or existed a couple of millenia ago (or even 300 years ago) still hold true today. Please believe me -- Franconian is a better general term, unless you want to add a note saying that modern Frankish should not be confused with the language of the Franks.
Please don't say that it is -- we have ample evidence that the Franks spoke VERY different dialects -- even within one kingdom and one family. JHK
would it make the propaganda/war criminal trial issue clearer to say 'War crime trials of Nazi government officials', and let people draw their own conclusions about what 'war crimes' are. They certainly WERE trials. The idiom in English is 'trial of' rather than 'trial against'. --
MichaelTinkler
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