Wikipedia: Lucifer/Talk

I think calling the traditional Christian interpretation a misunderstanding isn't particularly NPOV.

Also, the star which falls from the sky is also mentioned in Revelation (IIRC), although maybe not explicity called Lucifer.

It _is_ a historical misunderstanding, due to misunderstanding translations.

Something is translated correctly but narrowly - someone reads the narrow translation and misinterpret it when translating to another language. The same thing happen if you tell someone a story, and they tell it on. If I translate a text from norwegian into english, and then someone else translates it from english to, say, spanish .. then the spanish translation wouldn't reflect the norwegian text as good as the english one, as information WILL have been lost along the way.

Of course, you could always rewrite it into "Some people think that this is based on a Christian misunderstanding", however I don't think you'll find anyone presented with the facts arguing for the medieval view. :)

--arcade

I think you are ignoring a long tradition within Christianity of giving prophecies multiple interpretations. In particular, many prophecies dealing with no longer relevant events were later reinterpreted to have broader, more universal significance. Often current events and the end of the world were merged into one, making it very difficult to determine what is talking about today and what is talking about the end of the world (see, for example, the passage in Matthew concerning the fall of Jerusalem). Maybe this kind of expansion was illegitimate, maybe it was not, but it was not unknown in ancient Judaism or Christianity, nor medieveal or modern Christianity for that matter. (Witness the pesher method of interpretation used by Qumran, or typology). So just because the passage originally referred to the Babylonian King, doesn't mean that Christians like Jerome interpreted it as solely doing so -- they may well have interpreted it as also talking about a more cosmic event -- the fall of Satan from heaven.

And even if the original text is talking about the king of Babylon, it is quite possibly using Venus as an allegory for the king. In which case, the later interpretation of it is perfectly legitimate. Alternatively, if they intepreted it as reffering to the fall of Satan, the translation may have been influenced by an independent tradition that Satan was the morning star. And look at Revelation, where you will find several references to falling stars, one of which may be Satan (I am no expert at interpreting Revelations) -- which might indicate a prior existence of a tradition to the effect that Satan is the morning star fallen from the heavens.

Anyway, to summarise -- there are other possible explanations than it being an inaccurate translation. It might be a perfectly accurate translation, according to the religious presuppositions of the translators. -- SJK

: Also on the topic of translation and religious 'opinion'. Please don't think that the Latin translators of scripture were simple-minded or unconnected to a larger tradition. Jerome was not only working out of Greek and Hebrew scripture texts, but had access to contemporary (5th C. A.D.) Jews and their opinions. He read commentaries written by and for Rabbinic Jews on their own texts. That background may or may not (I have no immediate idea) have influenced this translation, but it must be taken into consideration; not do contemporary scholars think it's a mistranslation of the Hebrew, but what did 5th century Jews say the text meant. --MichaelTinkler

You both raise interesting points.

I'm not sure on how to formulate the article, I've done a bit searching, and found the following, quite interesting article on it:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml (which I based my entry quite a bit on)

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/LuciferandSatan.html

http://web2.iadfw.net/~elo/news/venus.html

Any recomendations on how to type this out, to reflect it all from a NPOV ?

--arcade

: Well, you're going to have to start by explaining that the websites you're drawing on are extremely tricky. I don't know that any of the people on the first one address the issue that I raised, for instance. They're all talking about 'just translating the Hebrew', as though there wasn't any discussion about what the words signified as well as what they meant. The Web is not always the best place to find information about difficult topics. --MichaelTinkler

Uhm, no. The first one does, which I based my initial expanding of the Lucifer article on. The two last are explaning it quite a bit better. Still reading other pages, though.

Also, I expect that people that know more about it, sure will add to the article. :)

--arcade

The second link cites one source after 1908. And the site is an apologetic site ditancing Freemasonry from accusations of Satanism - not the kind of place to find a dispassionate, scholarly discussion of Rabbinic Judaism and its interpretations of Hebrew. I'm still not impressed. --MichaelTinkler

: Hmm. I know it's bad form to feel as angry as I do right now, Dr. Tinkler, but I'll try to hold back my ready-to-erupt bile and talk reasonably about the GLBC page which you refer to as "an apologetic site ditancing [sic] Freemasonry from accusations of Satanism." First, the site is not an apology, at least as defined by the dictionary I checked. It is not an excuse or explanation for behaviour, but rather shows people that the supposed behaviour never existed in the first place. You seem to have a distinct hatred for any work of scholarship related in any way to esotericism. Admittedly, there have been quite a few of these works in the past which have been poorly done. I'll concede "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail," and "The Hiram Key," for example. You're not really answering any argument whatsoever when you claim that a GLBC page about anti-masonry is "not the kind of place to find a dispassionate, scholarly discussion..." why not? Or are you using rhetoric in the absence of facts to get across an argument you "know" to be right? That sounds a lot like the academic sin of which you claim the GLBC is guilty.

: I have no qualms whatsoever about (what appears to me) your enthusiastically-held Catholicism. You have the right to worship whatever Supreme Being you wish in whatever fashion you wish. Yet, on the Freemasonry/Talk page, you presented a letter from the very anti-masonic and frankly libelous Cardinal Law as a resource for information on Freemasonry. Which way should we have it, Dr. Tinkler? Shall we accept anyone's opinion, based only on their ability to back up that opinion with evidence (a position I would be glad to agree with), or shall we accept only the word of "experts" when dealing with their field? You can't have it both ways. Or perhaps you think we should accept the word of Catholics, but not people of other faiths?

: Since I have started contributing what I can to Wikipedia, I have had nothing but the utmost respect for your dedication to your field, although I have argued with you about a number of points... in many cases, you have been correct, and I incorrect. But in this case, it seems to me that your bias has gone too far, and that you have lost that passion for understanding that no doubt informs both our lives. I hope that I have merely misinterpreted what you have meant, because I shudder to think that an educated individual could be as bigoted as you appear to be. --[Alex Kennedy]

And the third link! My gosh! Go to the top-page of that one! [1]. His 'upcoming articles' list promises:

    Elvis and Jesus Spotted in Las Vegas Casino,

    God Fixes Leaking Toilet,

    Rain Occurs After Four Years of Prayer,

    Burned Out Lightbulb Proof of God, and

    Holy Ghost Ate Santa's Cookies.

This is not the kind of thing you want to rely on! Now this is not to say that this person is incapable of presenting facts, but his entire purpose makes him un-useful for an encyclopedia! Remember, NPOV. --MichaelTinkler

There is quite a bit of difference between what he presents as 'stories' and his editorials.

But as I've already said, I've expanded the original twoline article with more information. _I_ think I've done it from a NPOV, albeit I'm sure people with more knowledge about it should expand upon it.

I could always try to edit it a bit more. :)

--arcade

A better explanation provided by Yet Anoter Link. :-)

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel2.htm

Quite a good article, from what I can see.

--arcade

Before I even click on it, arcade, I note that they're Theosophists. Since that ipso facto identifies them as interested in the esoteric side of things, it undercuts anything they have to say about ancient texts - Madame Blavatsky claimed all kinds of things, including lots and lots of 'lost knowledge'. Again, this does not mean that they are incapable of getting something right, but they have predilecitons for 'underground' interpretations. There are mainstream scholarly opinions on this material. You are unlikely to find them on the web. Sorry to sound so pedantic. --MichaelTinkler

And I get the feeling i'm sounding quite luserish. :-)

Ahwell, if I can't find the material on the web, I think i'll let the current version stay - and if someone with better knowledge about it comes along, they're sure to edit it to reflect things better.

I did however find a quite amusing site rejecting the Theosophist view .. with Michael Drosnin's "Bible Codes". I didn't know wheter I should laugh or cry .. but ohwell :)

--arcade

The article seems slanted against a common Christian view that Lucifer is Satan, God's enemy, someone to be thwarted by doing good deeds rather than to be worshiped. But since I adhere to that Christian view, I might be reading bias where NPOV really is.

Some theological commentators have been challenged traditional (or common) interpretations of Bible verses, pointing to updated translations. The issue of Biblical interpretation (hermeneutics?) is crucial to innumerable points of contention, such as whether homosexuality is sinful.

Can we rewrite the article to reflect all points of view with equal weight?

--Ed Poor

I agree, Ed, the current article is (a) a mess and (b) tendentious. Join in. --MichaelTinkler

1. Thanks for moving my comment, which I inadvertently put in the article.

2. I think a simple re-ordering would do it. First, give the traditional pov, explaining who translated/interpreted it. Then, give the reasons for the dispute and mention the Voodoo deity thing.

--Ed Poor

The new article is much better than what I managed. :) Now, could someone please point out the errors I made, in my attempt at NPOV, so that I can improve what I write in the future?

--arcade

Yeah, please, a whole article specifically geared to NOPV "sinners" like myself who want to "repent" of their bias and have valid points to make. We are the Jugglers, the sophisticated Men of Tomorrow who repudiate neutrality yet seek to attain the NOPV?. (See ha, ha, only serious in the Hacker's dictionary if you think I'm just being sarcastic.) --Ed Poor

Btw, after reading through the lucifer article again, I find it a tad tempting to comment on the Rev 12:5 introduction, as that cannot point to Is 14:12, as 14:12 is about a _specific king_, about a man. (See verse 16).

: You're right, I just threw that in. It probably belongs in [Christian Views of Satan]?.

Hmm, a couple more links, just to add'em in:

http://www.cresourcei.org/lucifer.html

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/faq/r&r9810q.htm

Both seems to be christian resources.