Britain and Ireland/Talk

The term "Britain and Ireland" can't possibly include the Isle of Man, which is neither part of Britain nor part of Ireland. Ditto for the Channel Isles. --Zundark, 2001 Nov 16

I agree there is a problem. In 99% of the uses of "British Isles" the term is used to mean "Britain and Ireland", but there are a few cases where it explicitly is used to mean the general collection of islands off North-Western Europe that historically was politically controlled by Britain. I do not know of an alternate succinct expression for that collection of islands that does not give the misleading impression that Ireland is British. Any suggestions. --Eob

The term "Britain and Ireland" is unclear and best avoided in almost any context. If what is meant is the British Isles, then the correct term is "British Isles" (and the British Isles article should make it clear that this doesn't imply Ireland is British). If what is meant is merely the two largest islands of the British Isles, then "Great Britain and Ireland" is better than "Britain and Ireland". If what is meant is the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland, then "United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland" is obviously clearest (although a bit long-winded). --Zundark, 2001 Nov 16

Sorry but if we want to use a NPOV I do not think it is acceptable to use the term "British Isles" except in an historical context. The situation is not simple because political and geographical terminology is mixed, and unfortunately that means that it is hard to come up with a acceptable concise name for the collection of islands off Europe that have historically been controlled by Britain. The use of "British Isles" is similar to the habit of some people to refer to "Britain" as "England", much to the annoyance of the Scots and Welsh.

Referring to Britain as "England" is just wrong, as is claiming that Britain and Ireland includes the Isle of Man. By contrast, the term "British Isles" is the normal term for the islands of Great Britain and Ireland and the smaller islands around them. Since "British Isles" is the term that is used, it's the term we should use - this is an encyclopedia, we're not supposed to make up our own terms. NPOV doesn't come into it, since no point of view is being expressed. --Zundark, 2001 Nov 16

Zundar, just because a term has been used in the past does not mean it should be used in the present when its offensiveness to some has become apparent. Other examples of usage that is no longer acceptable are: "girl" to describe a woman in the United States, "Eskimo" to describe the Inuit, "Lapp" to describe the Saami, "oriental" to describe East Asians in the United States. Just because British people were happy to use the term "British Isles" and to foster its use elsewhere does not mean we keep on using the term in this somewhat more enlightened age. How would you feel if that arhipelago was called the "Irish Isles"?

This is a hard issue. I'd say that the neutral point of view does enter into it, simply because a lot of people take umbrage at the use of the term "British Isles." Many Irish people and the Irish diaspora dislike it and would construe its constant use as generating a subtext to the effect that Irish is or ought to be British. Of course, British people think this is ridiculous, and they take umbrage at not using the perfectly precise term "British Isles." There is a somewhat similar dispute in that some people are taken aback by the use of "American" for United States citizen, when some other people think it ought to be used in English to mean The Americas--and when many Americans would be somewhat offended at our not using "Americans" to describe them. What's to be done? In both cases, I'd say, it's not that the potentially offending term shouldn't be used at all, but that we should do our best to be sensitive in various ways to the views of people who partake in the dispute. One very imperfect compromise would be to use the term, and then add disclaimer such as, "This term includes Ireland but of course should not be construed as meaning that Ireland is or ought to be British." Another compromise is to qualify the phrase: "the so-called British Isles, which includes Ireland and Britain." Maybe the best compromise is just to vary the usage, so that sometimes (even within the same article) we sometimes use "Britain and Ireland (and surrounding islands)" and sometimes "British Isles." This is similar to our sometimes using "American" and sometimes "of the United States" or "U.S. citizen." There is no perfect solution, but what's important is that we do our best not to convey a controversial view. We should be firmly wishy-washy on this sort of issue. :-) --LMS

Thanks Larry. How about this proposal: We use "Britain and Ireland" where we mean just those two islands. We use "British Isles" where we mean the entire archipelago in a geographical context but that we put some sort of qualification such as you suggest. --Eob

I don't see the point of the qualifier - that belongs in the article on the British Isles, not elsewhere. When we mention the Irish Sea, do we have to add a qualifier pointing out that Ireland doesn't own it? Does every mention of the Indian Ocean have to be accompanied by a statement that the ocean doesn't belong to India? --Zundark, 2001 Nov 16