Talk continued on /Talk. |
The copyright owners are the those who are creating this page. I think your actions here are very rude and in conflict with the principles and goals of Wikipedia. They reflect the fact that you are advocating a point of view and that very aggressively too. You may have strong opinions about the scientific aspects of any theory, but this is not the forum to express them. The Reciprocal System is a legitimate physical theory the premises, conclusions and predictions of which you are most welcome to challenge on scientific grounds, but you must refrain from your polemical efforts to exclude it on basis of a non-scientific bias.
Doug Bundy, 2001 Sep 29
We don't mean to be rude, but an encyclopedia is not the place to present cutting-edge research. A peer-reviewed scientific journal would be more appropriate. -- STG
Moreover, I really can't see Wikipedia becoming a repository for new research. There are other, more reputable forums for that, and we aren't set up for that; that's what journals are for. On Nupedia (which has the same policy), one of our editors actually quit because we wouldn't allow him to present what was essentially new research, that no doubt could have been published very easily (he's a renowned expert in his field). Our reason for this is essentially that encyclopedias are not in the business if reviewing the merits of new research. Now, I have no idea whether the Reciprocal System of Theory has been published in a peer-reviewed medium, and if so, how it was received. If it was published, how well it was received would determine exactly how it ought to be placed within Wikipedia. (Perhaps at the end of some article somewhere we could reserve a section for "New research on topic XYZ.")
I hope this seems reasonable to you. I hope it's obvious that it isn't our desire to say "only what's established could be correct," but rather "encyclopedias aren't in the business of judging new research and therefore we can't in good conscience include unpublished and non-peer-reviewed research." --Larry Sanger
Which is why I deleted the article. I was just trying to be polite. :) -- STG
Well, obviously some are trying to be more polite than others, but these actions are just not acceptable gentleman. First, it was deleted on grounds of copyright issues. That is not an issue. The author of the article is not me, it is Bruce Peret, editor of the journal RECIPROCITY, published by the International Society for Unified Science (ISUS). I am the president of ISUS. The web site is our web site! The text of the article is adapted from one of our own brochures which he authored. So, forget the copyright issue.
The next deletion was justified by the claim that "Wikipedia presents only accepted knowledge." This is a ridiculous argument unless you want to contend that the theory doesn't even exist. No theory, by definition, is knowledge. To remain logically consistent you will have to remove the entire category of physics called theory. That would be an advance, wouldn't it?
The next claim, which is just another way of making the same absurd argument, is made on the basis of the theory constituting "new research." Well, I'm sorry if it's distasteful for you guys, but that's, again, the definition of theory isn't it. After all, an old theory is not usually very useful since it's supposed to eventually lead to knowledge. And what do you mean by contending at the same time that it isn't a peer-reviewed theory? Nobody has the final word on the merits of any TOE to date, that's why there is a multitude of them (remember the term "meta-theory" one of you guys coined?) You cannot justify your bias and your polemical intent in this manner. The fact is that there are just not that many TOE theories around. The fact that RS is one of those seriously presented (60 years in the making) clearly qualifies it to be on the table for consideration with all other theories that can lay hold to that claim, whether or not it is among the "popular" ones as you describe the string theories to be.
The last argument is actually the most honest. The claim here does not revert to copyright issues, nor inconsistent logic, nor bogus arguments of peer review, but the reveals the desire to straight out condemn the theory as a "a crackpot theory." This age old defense is ALWAYS raised by "normal science" against a threatening and revolutionary new paradigm, just as Kuhn so eloquently and brilliantly outlined.
Well rave on if that is your want, but if a new discription of reality works better than the old it will eventually prevail, as has been demonstrated over and over again throughout history. Finally, besides all of this, I ask you "Where is the wisdom in taking this position? If the theory is useless, it will die of its own accord, on the junkheap of history with all the other "crackpot" theories that have ever been, but, on the other hand, if it proves beneficial to scientific progress, I humbly submit that you may want to hold your peace lest haply you find yourselves fighting against the progress of science, in the name of science, as so many before you have done. I insist on putting it back. It deserves to be recognized as a TOE contender. If you want to place it under a heading of new research as Larry suggested, feel free to do so, but then, in my opinion, it's going to appear awfully silly to do so since string theory is newer and as tentative as any.
The beauty of the Internet in general is that it levels the playing field, taking power out of the hands of the priesthoods and the aristocracies of society, placing some of it back into the hands of the less powerful with alternate, non-legacy views. Wikipedia in particular is a shining example of its power to do so. Thank God for it.
[Doug Bundy]? 29 Sep 01
If the theory is ever accepted by the scientific community, Wikipedia will include it. To me it appears to be, at most, a metaphysical system, and, as Axel Boldt pointed out, there is no mathematical content. And as Larry said, "encyclopedias aren't in the business of judging new research and therefore we can't in good conscience include unpublished and non-peer-reviewed research." Sorry. -- STG
Beyond that, I know absolutely nothing about the facts of the particular case--I can only report principles and let you draw your own conclusions. The age of the theory by itself isn't directly relevant. I also think this notion of what's "accepted by the scientific community" is too vague to be of much use in this case (what, there are no controversies within the scientific community?!), so that's not how I'd base my objection (if the facts of the case require me to have an objection). The core of what's at issue is whether the research in question has been peer-reviewed by the general community of physicists, in journals or in some other such "respectable" forum.
I think we in all of our creativity ought to be able to find some category in which to put information about this man and his theory and its followers, even if it's not listed as one of the serious contenders on the topic of a "theory of everything." The description of the general category should be hopefully something not abusive, but still accurate; something like "alternative theories." I don't know what you want to call it, probably not that. "Pseudo-science" would be abusive and prejudicial (even if it would be perfectly accurate); though there's nothing wrong with adding paragraphs explaining why the theory in question might be considered pseudo-science by mainstream scientists.
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Larry, All, I guess what I want to do first is to chill the rethoric a little, at least on my part. Larry, your statements seem to imply a more reasonable and fair attitude than some of the others so, I would just like to clarify a few points first if you don't mind. I'm a newbie here, so I need to make sure I understand clearly the rules involved. I've read the FAQ and all other material pertinent to the subject. It is my understanding that there are no official moderators or "overseerers" of the content. Is that correct and if so what is the meaning of your statement "I am decreeing it (as one of the few people who might plausibly be able to so decree)." Understand, I'm not taking issue with the "copyright" point itself. I will address that directly. I just need a clearer understanding of the power to exercise control over the editing of Wikipedia content. Is it power by virtue of "position," by virtue of "knowledge," by virtue of "majority rule," or what?
Second, what did you mean by the statement "if the facts of the case require me to have an objection." Is this a "case" subject to some established procedural process, maybe even including an appeal process? And how can the "facts" of this case possibly "require" you to have an objection? I would appreciate any clarification on these two points that you can provide.
Now, as to the copyright issue. I have no problem whatsoever complying with the requirements as you explained them. I must say that I find it curious that the RS "article" we submitted is considered a paper and that anyone could expect that a copyright owner who submits his own copyrighted material is not implicitly giving his permission by so doing. However, it's perfectly reasonable that the requirement for explicit permission be submitted, so all that I have to do as I see it is to provide the permission for its use on Wikipedia. I'll do it before submitting it again. No more issue.
With respect to the "core" issue, I assume that you speak for the rest of the objectors in conceding that the age of the theory and the "notion of what's 'accepted by the scientific community' are irrelevant and, as you put it, "too vague to be of much use," respectively, and, therefore, are not germane to this nor future discussion on the matter. What constitutes the relevant or "core" issue is "whether the research in question has been peer-reviewed by the general community of physicists, in journals or in some other such "respectable" forum." With all due respect, I think you are mistaken on this point Larry. Whether the theory has been pronounced viable in a "respectable" forum or not is entirely superfulous here.
RS is a theory of everything, a TOE, in the strictest sense of the term. This is not a trivial point that can be taken lightly. We cannot exclude any physical theory that claims this scope. It is the only legitimate criteria that can be considered in this case. A personal choice to dismiss it casually on perceived lack of merit is irrelevant, as indeed, a non-casual, in depth demonstration of its lack of merits would likewise be irrelevant. In this case, it is simply and solely the fact that it exists, and that it is tentatively posited as a physical theory of TOE scope to the scientific community that demands its inclusion in the category of such theories.
Any encyclopedia worthy of the name is therefore incomplete without it. As such, its status, to be sure, just as the status of any other theory, is tentative by definition. It simply cannot be excluded on this basis however. Beyond all dispute, the Reciprocal System of Theory qualifies as a theory of everything, even if it entirely fails to establish its premise and to gain acceptance. Moreover, it would qualify even if it were proven utterly false and without any scientific merit whatsoever. We simply might reference it as a discredited theory at that point. We might say that it "attempted" the task, in language similar to the reference already present in the article that refers to the Kaluza-Klein theory. It is clear however, that even under such circumstances, it retains its status as a TOE. Its reduced status as a valid theory in that case would only eliminate any compelling reason to include it for other than historical purposes at that point.
One last thought in closing. I respect your desire and ernest efforts to make sure that the Wikipedia contains the most accurate and credible information possible. But any effort not to dilute or compromise these qualities must at the same time be careful not to resort to enforcing a cannon of dogma, which might exclude the genuine scientific efforts of others. There is more than one way to approach the task of finding solutions to the many anomalous phenomena now confronting physics in crisis proportions, and the RS theory presents a fresh, intuitive and compelling approach that deserves critical, not casual consideration. We have many Phds and genuine scientists in our organization. We are not uninformed "crackpots," but serious students of physics desiring to engage intellectually with all.
Sincerely,
Doug Bundy
It certainly does not cut it as a hypothesis much less as theory... If it belongs anywhere, pseudoscience is about where it belongs... And that itself is probably prejudicial to some of the more interesting themes in that particular bag. sjc
I think by now it is clear that the theory does not deserve to be listed on Theory of everything since it it not a quantified physical theory and it doesn't unify the four fundamental forces. The theory even talks about ethics, so the physics area is not appropriate. Since Wikipedia is not paper, maybe we can find a place for it somewhere like "Alternative (or non-mainstream) attempts at metaphysical theories". Of course, the theory would have to be presented fairly, with criticisms attached, and I would be delighted to provide some. --AxelBoldt
Okay, I guess I will have to relent because I can't keep fighting all you guys at once. You out number me and I don't have the resources to keep battling you. I can't help thinking that your not being very honest or else it seems to me that I would have made at least some progress with my efforts to clarify my point of view. That doesn't seem to be the case except maybe for Larry. I didn't realize who he was at first. After seeing that he is a cofounder of Wikipedia, I feel even worse.
Here's what I propose as a compromise. Let me answer these allegations by writing the RS article and addressing the issues you raise in the article and its links. Maybe over time, we can come to an agreement based on facts rather than misconceptions - on both sides. In the meantime, I will agree not to link it to TOE, in fact, let us all agree not to link it at all until we can work out a solution satisfactory to everyone. That way, the article itself can become the basis for the discussion and we can avoid this acrimony and the resentment that it inevitably builds which does no one any good and is not becoming to the profession to say the least.
Doug Bundy
Doug Bundy
I have composed the first draft of my article. I have yet to make some revisions of the text that I have in mind and to add links when I have more time, but I thought it important to do the preliminary draft as soon as possible for your perusal. Criticism is welcome STG, prejudice is not. By the way I take exception to the phrase "The scientific community regards these ideas as pseudoscience" in the introduction. It is inaccurate and unfairly abusive as Larry has already pointed out. I suggest that you modify it to say "Some within the scientific community regard these ideas as pseudoscience" as it more accurately reflects the fact that there is no consensus on this point to which you can legitimatly refer. Furthermore, you cannot speak on behalf of the scientific community, even if you were a member of it, and it has not as yet, as a community, considered RS, let alone passed any such judgement upon it.
--- Doug Bundy
--Josh Grosse
-- Josh try this:
"Faraday discovered that whenever the current in the primary circuit 1 is caused to change, there is a current induced in circuit 2 while that change is occurring. This remarkable result is not in general derivable from any of the previously discussed properties of electromagnetism." Thorne, Kip S., Scientific American, Dec. 1974
-- Doug
So one of Maxwell's equations, the one he happened to describe last, does not follow from the others. That does not mean it has not been explained. The tensor form of electromagnetism, the Kaluza-Klein theory, the model of quantum electrodynamics, and string theories all provide explanations of the effect of one sort or another. But in any case this is only a particular example of the problem - if you want another, physicists do not restrict themselves to fixed coordinate systems. I would actually recommend rewriting the article from scratch because it will be darn hard to remove all of these manually, thanks to the language not being at all similar to the everyday. I have no idea what a datum is, the way you are using the word, and time is something clocks measure with a single number, so if you call it three-dimensional you must have a different idea of either time or dimension than most people. And so forth. If you want to actually present the theory, please explain where it is using terms in a special manner. Otherwise your writing will be misleading at best, and it would be better not to bother.
Tell you what: I'm going to go through and annotate the article with things that I think absolutely must be changed if it is to be kept. Then, you can deal with those at your leisure. It seems to me that's the best way to approach this, instead of pulling teeth one at a time on the /Talk page, since as it is the article is far from acceptable anyways.
It's obvious that there are some very strong feelings here. But I hope that we all can control our reactions to maintain a reasonable and respectful level of disagreement. It was my understanding that by not placing any links to the article for the time being, we could sooth some fears and defuse an explosive situation. In this manner also, I can have a chance to demonstrate that RS is not psuedoscience by getting it on the table so to speak so that we can discuss that subject in a substantive context that might help reduce baseless (i.e. strawman) challenges. Scientific differences between competing theories is not the issue here. There are always those issues, but they're legitimate issues for discussion, not for deletion of the competing theory! The way I see it, the only issue that is grounds for such an extreme action is the "psuedoscience" issue - and that is really tough because it calls for a judgement by "editors", and then it's a matter of deleting it from a classification, not altogether, lest we be accused of almost being Nazi-like book burners. The battle of ideas is serious, and just like in the case of religious ideas, one man's religion is the next man's cult. Ideas in the realm of scientific inquiry need to be above that level however.
You might find this difficult to believe, but I am actually on your side. If RS is not science, but a fake, imitation of science, I want to know because I'm not interested in promoting psuedoscience, but advancing real knowledge. Crap, who would want to promote that garbage? I don't and you can take that to the bank. So, really I need your help here. Let's take our time, be honest and respectful and examine this thoroughly to make the right decision.
Let me start the discussion by first appealing to the dictionary definition of psuedo and then science:
psuedo - "a learned borrowing from Greek meaning "false," "pretended," "unreal."
science - "a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws."
Now psuedoscience then is in some sense a "false," "pretended," or "unreal," dealing with the facts, or a "false," "pretended," or "unreal," system for arrangment of facts, or a "false," "pretended," or "unreal," demonstration of the operation of general laws with respect to the facts so arranged. I'm not sure how helpful it is to start with dictionary definitions, but there it is in case we need it.
In my article, I first attempt to show that RS is based on a scientifically reasonable and logically valid premise. So, the first thing that needs to be settled is the answer to that crucial question. Did i succeed or not? If not, why not?
Secondly, I try to show that it is possible to verify the premise through the application of deductive logic by comparing theoretical results with empirical data, and, conversely, it is possible to "falsify" the premise by the same means. Again, did I or did I not succeed?
Once the basis of the premise and the logical process are established, I tried to show, as much as is possible to do in two pages, that though the verdict is not in yet by any means, some progress was already evident. I have not indicated that the work is anything but in progress. There is no talk of conclusions as to the validity of the postulates, only the tentative results of comparing the theoretical to the empirical. Again, is this true or not, and, if not, why not?
Finally, let me say, that I, personally see no evidence that indicates a false, pretended or unreal treatment of the facts. I see a step by careful step of scientifically searching for logical consequences of the postulates and then an honest, forthright, scientific effort to compare the theoretical with the empirical. What's more, the scientific community is invited to join in the process, the more physicists engaged in the effort, the sooner some definite conclusion can be reached. As far as the article itself is concerned, this is just the preliminary draft. Don't hold my feet to the fire too much based on it. I hope to provide ample opportunity to investigate RS claims to successes in due course.
-- Doug Bundy 1 Oct 01
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Not necessarily Larry. These things always take time. If it turns out that the RS postulates are correct, the world of physics will undergo a revolution, and scientific revolutions take time. Thomas Kuhn's work "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions," offers some compelling insight.
Doug
Stephen,
---Doug
Doug
Doug Bundy's replies to the questions Josh asked are here: RS proponets answers. --Zundark, 2001 Oct 2
As a note, Doug, they weren't questions but rather comments on things that absolutely need alteration or clarification if the article is to become neutral and coherent (e.g. using explaining when words are used in a non-standard fashion, so they will not be misleading). No hurry to fix them, but I think they pretty much have to be fixed by the time this is done. --JG
You know what Josh, I missed your comments above, but after reading them and this note I understand what you were doing. I'm sorry, I thought they were questions, not editorial comments. Actually, they are quite helpful when viewed that way. I take it all back. :) Maybe this is turning out to be a learning curve for me - learning a new, but maybe not so bad after all, culture.
doug