Pomerania/Talk

If Germany SIGNED an agreement with Poland recognizing something that de facto existed, doesn't that ipso facto make it de jure QED? J Hofmann Kemp, having fun with language...

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If you are on vacation or out of the country for a while and a transient breaks in your house and lives there. He lives de facto in your house . But does he de jure live in your house ???? H. Jonat

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He is if you sign something that says he can live there. That's the definition of de jure. Duh! -- Paul Drye

Was just going to say that, Paul -- although, to complete the analogy, it's more like you found out someone was illegally living in your house, and then agreed in writing not to press charges -- this not only makes it de jure, but would set a precedent for future legal occupation...JHK

First : funny thing: "transient breaks in your house and lives there", so may be we should write on the page History/Germany? that "Polish general Rydz-Smigly on 1 September 1939 attacked Germany, then burnt Berlin, built concentration camps in Germany and murdered best sons of German homeland (in the first place teachers, priests, doctors). The second, more important thing: Article 2 of treaty signed in 1990 by Kohl and ratified by Bundestag states that: "Agreeing Parties declare that existing between them border is infrangible now and in the future (...)", Article 1 states that "Agreeing Parties confirm existing between them border [here description of border] (...)", Article 3 states that: "Agreeing Parties declare that they do not have any territorial claims and that they will not have any claims of this kind in the future". Treaty states nothing about "de jure" or "de facto". Kohl didn't tell nothing about this strange distinction when he signed this document in Poland, so how is it ?

Kazik

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Because he didn't need to, Kazik. De jure is the English expression (directly imported from Latin) meaning "legally". In other words, the effects of a signed treaty are by definition de jure. Saying something is de jure is not an attempt to evade the truth, as I think you may be saying here. --Paul Drye

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To Kazik ,yes , truly a funny thing : about this Polish general Rydz-Smigly , who in March 1939 had a portrait of himself painted (by Herbert Smagon) riding through the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, triumphantly taking over the capital city of Germany.( Never published until 2000.) And there exists a map by Polish history Professor Semkowicz , who shows all of Eastern Germany and including Western Germany south of Hamburg and Bremen at the Atlantic North Sea taken over and claiming it as Poland .

Not only Russia had mobilized and wanted to attack Germany as Alexander Solshenizin had earlier documented and again recent books by Russian author Suworow verify . Poland had also mobilized and wanted to attack Germany. Poland had put a large ammunition depot in the Danzig harbor, against which the Danzig citizens protested . Starting 1922 Poland had built a large harbor called Gdynia at a tiny fishing village of Prussia's Gdingen (this with western financing).

And let us not forget Poland had militarily taken the Ukraine etc from Russia.

In summer 1939 50,000 Germans (1920 they became "Ethnic Germans in Poland") in 'Polish Corridor" were incarcerated and 5000 were butchered during a force death march through cities like Thorn, Bromberg etc.

And you may not know this , as a lot of Americans may not even know this, but the real policy makers behind F.D. Roosevelt ( Morgenthau Plan , White etc),who had called for total destruction of all of Germany and extermination of all Germans , later under Truman silently left the scene , when it surfaced that they were communists.

In 1947 an American Institute of Economics published a book : "Gruesome Harvest, The Costly Attempt To Exterminate The People of Germany". For Americans of that time it must have been a real eye-opener and soon after the Marshal-Plan was established.

May I also point out some books : "An Eye for an Eye" about German prisoners of Polish camps , by John Sack and "A Terrible Revenge" by Alfred deZaya .

As the books by author Suworow show , there are a lot of facts , that have been kept from the public in many countries by the victorious allies for many years.

So , yes it is a funny thing about this Polish general Rydz-Smigly. H. Jonat

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The real policy makers behind Roosevelt? It is to laugh. Roosevelt was arguably the most independent of American presidents over the last 100 years. He was rightly notorious for listening to everybody, then doing exactly what he wanted to do. -- Paul Drye

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To Paul Drye From what I have been told by older people in USA , who lived through it personally, Roosevelt was too sick, that he really could not handle things. But strangely , the same thing was written of Wilson, 80 years later. So , what is the truth ?

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H.Jonat has written:

  "And let us not forget Poland had militarily taken the Ukraine etc from Russia."

In my opinion this statement contains partial truth. Poland has taken militarily a part of Ukraine in 1918-1921, Poles have commited crimes on Ukrainians and murdered them. The difference between you and me is that I don't claim that Ukraine "has broken into Polish house" in 1944 or in 1990. Neither that despite treaty signed by Poland with Ukraine "we can't be sure that Lvov de jure belongs to Ukraine".

Kazik

To Kazik , I never claimed that either. H. Jonat