Wikipedia: Vegetarianism/Talk

From Vegetarianism:

"Vegetarianism has strong links to many religious traditions, including Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Taoism, and others."

Taoism? Really? I've never heard this.

dont know why its in my subconscious, but you can check it out on google.

http://www.sinica.edu.tw/tit/dining/0795_EatVegetarian.html for example.

Interesting! Thanks! -- took a look at the page, and now I'm hungry! :-)

This article needs: explanation of different reasons vegetarians are vegetarians (I've listed 3, there are several more), explanations of different levels of vegetarianism (some people eat tuna & call themselves veg, others eat dairy and eggs, etc.--just to comment on the word's different uses); also a debunking of that damn "what do you do for protein" bit everyone feels compelled to throw in, ignoring that Hank Aaron, Carl Lewis, and Billie Jean King all apparently got enough protein). :-)

Claudine said she'd have an article for Vegetarianism soon.

Ok, thanks. --KQ

Would Putting quotes around Harming in the ovo-lacto vegetarian sentance be biased? --mincus

: Probably would, unless you could medically prove that the animal is in worse shape after collection than before. IMHO of course :-) --Anders T?lind

: I think that would be rather easy considering the way they are treated, the drugs that are used to increase productivity, and what happens to them after they can no longer produce. Perhaps we could just agree on a way of stating it without using the word?

Alright, this is looking good! I've incorporated my text. We still need to address the nutritional concerns (both for and against), and some scientific facts to back up my very basic discussion of the ecological concerns. Perhaps also some history of vegetarian movements and the gradual acceptance of vegetarianism in mainstream western society.

Mincus and Anders, what do you think of my use of the word 'exploitation'? I still feel guilty about eating cheese. 8-> -- Claudine

: Very nice Claudine! Some of the arguments against vegetarianism are The bible (We have dominion over the animals, so was can do with them as we please +various quotes that show that God loves us if we kill animals), Plants hurt too, and aninmals kill animals and they would kill us given the chance. Um... I was thinking about writing this part up... but I think that I might be biased in favour of not eating meat, so I think that I will leave this to someone else. Perhaps I will see if I can do the nutrition myths part... --mincus

Regarding the Vitamin B12 problem: Is B12 in milk and eggs? Furthermore, I once read that B12 is in foods that have been processed by certain bacteria, and the German "Sauerkraut" was given as an example. Sauerkraut is cabbage made sour and digestable by bacteria (or yeast?). --AxelBoldt

: B12 cannot be gotten reliably from most plant sources. Although most sea plants have a good amount of B12 it can and usually is lost from processing. The best source of B12 for vegetarians and vegans is from nutritional yeast or from B12 fortified: cereals, soy milk, and other "fake" vegetarian and vegan foods. As a side note, the bacteria in your intestines produce minute amounts of B12, and you can also get B12 from not washing your hands properly, but neither methods produce enough of the daily required amounts of B12. Also, if you had eaten meat previously, your body can store up to 20-30 years of the vitamin in your system before you would start showing signs of defecincy. -- mincus

Ok, how about milk, eggs, Sauerkraut? --AxelBoldt

: Sorry about that... got on a little rant and forgot the main question ;) B12 is produced by bacteria and is found mainly in meat, eggs, and dairy products. Almost everyone agrees that plants are not a good source of the vitamin. --mincus

Then we still need to settle the Sauerkraut question. There's certainly bacteria or yeast involved, so it's possible that it has B12. Also, you mentioned yeast: how much would one have to consume, and in what form? Thanks --AxelBoldt

: Im unable to find any sources that will say and backup that you can get a sufficent amount of B12 from vegetables (including sauerkraut), most feel that the only way to be sure is through suppliments or fortified food. It is suggested by the FDA that you have 6 mcg (micrograms) of B12 a day. A quick look through my kitchen shows me that 1 glass of soy milk gives one 50% of your daily intake, 1 B12 suppliment in tablet form give 8,333% (not a mistype), and 1 serving of Nutritional Yeast (16g) gives 130%. --mincus

How do we resolve the first sentence: "Vegetarianism is the practice of not consuming the flesh ... or products of animals." with a paragraph 7: "In everyday language, 'vegetarianism' is usually synonymous with ovo-lacto vegetarianism, which tolerates the consumption of animal products". Are we suggesting that ovo-lacto Vegetarianism isn't really Vegetarianism? Or is O.L. a form of vegetarianism? Would it be ok to modify the first sentence? -D

: I would like to suggest again, that we show that vegetarians just do not eat meat, foul and fish(but they could still wear animal products and such), whereas vegan will not partake (eat, use, wear) any animal products or by-products. --mincus

There are more people calling themselves vegetarian than conforming with the definition of "vegetarian" (that is, a person who eats no meat). Since "meat" = "animal flesh as food," then technically eggs and fish are both meat (fish are animals; eggs are simply animals that haven't yet hatched. Come on, now, obviously they're not plants.) Anyway so many people eating eggs and meat, but not chicken, beef, or pork, call themselves "vegetarian," these other terms have sprung up to disambiguate: ovo-lacto vegetarian: eats eggs and dairy products but is otherwise vegetarian. Lacto-vegetarian: eats dairy products but not eggs. There are also the so-called "semi-vegetarians" (not my definition) who either occasionally eat meat, fish, or poultry; or eat some of those but not the other; or who might be a mollo-vegetarian (eats mollusks like clams and scallops) or crusto-vegetarian (eats crustaceans like crabs and shrimp) or even "ento-vegetarians" (eats insects. no, that's not a joke). Anyway, so in short: people use the term to mean a lot more than its traditional definition. The situation's a bit sloppy.

Anyway, so in answer to your question: we resolve the first sentence carefully, with diplomacy. :-) --KQ

: Fair enough ;) Then perhaps we need to research what all the different names are and add something about each. Also I think we need to fix/add fact to backup the part about what vegetarians do and do not get enough of. And, just a neat little note, eggs that people eat will never hatch, as they are unfertilized.

Also because they'll be chewed up and digested. Thank you. Thank you. You've been a great crowd. --KQ

: hehe, spose I was begging for that ;)

I wasn't suggesting that Vegetarianism includes people who eat meat (though I understand some would disagree.) All I'm suggesting is that we remove "products" from the first sentence. Or, how about "... is the practice of not consuming the flesh, parts, and in some cases, the products of animals." Heck, I'm just gonna change it. Change it back if you disagree, and I won't mess with it again. -D

One of the things I love about Wikipedia: take a day 'off' and there are all these improvements!

Mincus, I think I'll have to start work on that [postmodern theology]? article I've been thinking about. The first chapter of Genesis is a favourite justification for anti-vegetarian and anti-environmentalist arguments. What other examples were you thinking of? A liberal postmodern Christian might interpret the Creation story in Genesis as saying that humans are naturally more powerful than other animals, so we have a duty to take care of the earth's resources and use them wisely. In this view, abattoirs, battery farms and fur coats are *not* good things.

More stuff for my ToDo list.. 8-> -- Claudine

On the Vitamin B12 issue, it is simply not true that there are not good sources available to a strict vegetable based diet. The fermented soy bean product called Tempeh is an excellent source and can easily provide more than enough. The average daily requirement is only a few micrograms. Tempeh is used in Indonesia and other far eastern countries and is used extensively in the Macrobiotic diet. Ian