Larry, this text is much improved. If you don't mind I'll change the essay, so that the existential view of religious faith is not the only one presented.
I'd also like to re-write the definition of fideism, to include a more philosophically defensible view, which is actually held by some Christian philosophers...
Fideism, on this account, is simply the claim that "faith" includes beliefs which are either above, beyond, or against reason. The difference between radical fediesm, and moderate fediesm is that the moderate fediest qualifies reason in various ways. If you are amenable, I'll develop this more, and dig up the sources necessary to attribute this to the relevant philosophers... MRC
No problems, Mark. This is definitely not my area. --Larry
- In many situations in life, there is a large body of circumstantial evidence supporting a given point of view, without actually having concrete proof, and faith can often play the deciding role in the acceptance or non-acceptance of such a point of view.
I removed this, not because I think it
definitely shouldn't be in the article, but for the following reasons. I am skeptical that "faith" is the correct term to apply in such a situation. I'm not sure what the force of the claim is that "faith can often play the deciding role" in situations where the evidence is inconclusive. Is it a statistical claim about human psychology, viz., that when evidence is inconclusive, some people just leap to one position or another based on "faith"? Or is it a semantic claim, saying that the sorts of belief just described really ought to be called "faith"? Or is it, perhaps, an epistemological claim, saying that
it's OK to leap to one position when the evidence is inconclusive (since everybody does it, presumably)? Moreover, however exactly it is to be understood, is this just a statement of personal opinion? As far as I know, the other views mentioned in the article (at least, when properly clarified) can find supporters among theologians and philosophers. And, for all I know, the above too can find such supporters. So, if you put the claim back into the article, it would be nice to see a source for it.
I am not (really!) trying to start a debate here. I am just trying to explain my reasoning. Feel free to put it back. --LMS
- I don't much like that statement either--it doesn't really say much, and what it does say is wrong. I, personally, don't have much use for faith of any kind, even in "reason" or "science"--I consider every decision I make at every point in my life a gamble. Indeed, that's what "life" is to me--dead things are predictable, life is about taking chances. I certainly seek to find the best odds, and I make commitments to one proposition or another. I've decided to put my money on a certain horse like "science" rather than "mysticism", I think I have good reasons for making that choice, and I'm willing to face the consequences of that choice, but that doesn't mean I have anything like "faith" in it. --LDC
Perhaps it needs revision based on the neutral point of view idea. I know people who tell me that, given circumstantial evidence, they make a final decision based on faith in some belief one way or the other. I can see there being plenty of philosophical discussions on such an action, and I won't pretend to be a theologian. Does such a statement need to have the endorsement of a recognized philosopher to be included in the article, or can it be preceded with "many people think...". I don't think it is an uncommon point of view. --Alan Millar
As far as I'm concerned, when some view on an abstract religious topic isn't endorsed by an actual theologian or philosopher, it might bear mention, but only as a matter of anthropological interest. Actually, I'll bet you can find a representative for your view here, but I'm not sure. --LMS
This article should be renamed Faith in Christianity. Since faith in general is a philosophical discussion of its own. Faith in general simply is unquestioning trust transcending empirical knowledge. This definition applies to all uses of the term, however Christians, Jews, Hindus, Scientologists, Buddists, Confucists, Mormons, Agnostics, Atheists, Humanists, Scientists, all have different spins and additions based on their particular lifestyle and philosophy. When I wrote my entry I was trying to focus on an objective discussion of the common elements of what faith is an how it influences acceptance of religious theologies in place of concrete ignorance. --Jonathan--
But the present article isn't just about faith in Christianity; it is a philosophical introduction to the concept, inevitably informed Christian examples of theories of faith because that's what most of us are familiar with. Anyway, details about faith in other religions are more than appropriate. Why not? The notion that faith "transcends empirical knowledge" is not particularly clear and sounds like your theory about what faith is, not an uncontroversial starting-point that can be used to identify various theories about what faith is.
This is not at all to say that an article called [faith in Christianity]? would be inappropriate--we definitely should have one, eventually. --LMS
Perhaps Faith in Religion would be best if a sufficiently broad spectrum were to be represented (this seems to be the way you are leaning). Obviously my baseline position is simply observing the difference between operating knowledge which is scientifically derived and operating assumptions otherwise derived. Commonly the latter case would be accepted as faith whether or not it was religiously related and the former is thus distinguished from faith. I'm not sure that I understand the sticking point. --Jonathan--
Now that you have heard our views, I recommend that you change the article, if you think it's incorrect; if necessary, I will change it back explaining what I think is incorrect. I'm interested in discussion on this page only insofar as it results in improvement to the main page. From what I've heard from you so far, however, I really don't think you have studied the concept of faith very much. --
LMS
I would have described "faith" in much the same way you do if asked to scribe an entry 25 years ago as I first started studying the philosophy of religion. After years of study and anguishing thought I realized that faith and religion have some simple commonalities which became the clearly defining distinctions from what those things were not. What is faith? That without fact is the simple answer. However it is apparent that those with "Faith" are more interested in the nature of the particular ideas making up that "Faith" than simply defining "faith". Since my intent was only to provide insight, and not to irritate, I will abdicate from my failure to communicate. --Jonathan-- :-/
I do think that some religious folks believe based upon evidence (sometimes a'priori arguments, and sometime empirical evidence) and I'm pretty sure they don't constitute an extremist minority. The belief that faith should not or cannot be based on evidence finds no place in Christian thought before the twentieth century, and even thin it has become popular only in industrialized countries, so it is certainly not the majority opinion amongst Christians. My knowledge of Jewish and Islamic thought seems to indicate that many practitioners of these faiths are willing to provide evidence for their beliefs, so I think the definition of faith as belief without evidence is not as broad as you seem to think. At the very least it does not apply universally across the monotheistic religions.
However, it is a popular view amongst pantheists, as well as certain groups of Christians who express an extreme form of fideism. I believe that some modern Jewish existentialists would also fit quite easily into this camp, so the view should certainly be included with a thorough explanation of it's historical context and some documentation of its proponents. However, it should be clearly defined, and clearly delineated from other contemporary views of the meaning of faith. MRC
Well put, however, I guess my definition of empirical evidence is simply too stringent to be compatible with that which has, and is, been used as a basis for "Faith" or more generally "faith". After all a drought is clear empirical evidence of an angry god. --Jonathan--
![[Home]](wikipedia.png)