Wikipedia: Anti-Semitism/Talk

If this claim were true--

: Anti-Semitism is the belief that people of Jewish ancestry are inherently different from people of other ancestry and that individuals and society should enforce those differences.

--then many Jews would be anti-Semites! --LMS

The following contains numerous assertions and value judgements, and will need serious rewriting before it is encyclopedia quality. Anti-Semitism, incidentally, is spelled anti-Semitism. - Tim

Much of the antisemitism seen in Arab and Muslim nations today comes from the vast amount of antisemetic literature published by Arab governments, including Syrian claims (in the UN) that Jews murder and eat Christian babies for Passover; Egyptian claims that Jews lace bubble gum with aphrodisiacs to cause Muslim girls to lose sexual inhibitions; that Jews invented HIV (the virus that causes AIDS); that Jews control all the world's governments; that Jews plan genovide on all the Arabs in the world; that all Jews are capitalists and control the world's banks; that all Jews are communists and plan a Marxist takeover of the world; that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are real; and that the Holocaust never took place.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pastatements.html

Antisemitism in the Arab press is rampant; often one sees literally the exact same claims used by Nazi Germany in modern day Arab newspapers. http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/arabprtoc.html

A detailed study of all aspects of antisemitism can be found here:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/antisem.html

Anti-Semitic beliefs are often held by people of many different ethnicities. Anti-Semitism has a long history, including persecution of Jews in Europe, the Middle East and the Western World at large. Can someone expand on this? Relations between Christians and Jews have at times been horrible, other times bad, yet at other times peaceful. In recent years there has been much reconciliation between Jews and Christians.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Christian.html

http://communities.msn.com/JudaismFAQs&naventryid=251

The most damaging anti-semetic act ever created to cause hatred against Jews is the infamous Russian hoax, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

The word "anti-Semitism", by definition, means "Jew-hatred"; it has never been used to mean "against Semites", and has never been used to mean prejudice against Druze, Arabs or any other people of middle-easten origin. The word "anti-semite" was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr as a more euphonious way of saying "Judenhass" (Jew-hatred), and has always meant exactly that. In recent years this word has become too sanitized and too easily misunderstood, which is exactly what Marr tried to accomplish with the word's creation. By definition, this word cannot mean prejudice against other semetic racial groups; no such racial groups exist. The word "semetic" actually refers to a language family, not any kind of ethnic group. A preferred term is now "antisemitism", written in a non-hyphenated form; this was the suggestion of the distinguished historian James Parkes.

There is a confluence between anti-Zionism and antisemitism, even though the two concepts are not always identical. Anti-Zionism is directed against the political realization of Zionism, the existence of the State of Israel. In practice, anti-Zionism has also become a catchword for antisemitism and has provided antisemites with a convenient cloak behind which to conceal their hatred of Jews. It is probably worth remembering the words of Dr. Martin Luther King:

"... You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of G-d's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is G-d's own truth. Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so." (From M. L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.

Since the 1960s there have been increasing tensions between the American Jewish and the African-American community; the once-strong alliance between them no longer exists. Instead, in college campuses all across the United States, black college newspapers print articles directly from the [The Nation of Islam]?, accusing all Jews of all the world's most heinous crimes.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/black1.html

RK: A dialogue for your edification, between Dr. Martin Luther King and a Neturei Karta member (fictional, but easily could have happened)

Martin Luther King: "... You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of G-d's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is G-d's own truth. Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so."

SJK points out a valid argument: Neturei Karta member: "But Dr. King, I'm an anti-Zionist, and I'm a proud Jew. How can you call me inherently antisemitic?"

Martin Luther King: "Oops... never thought of that"

RK (me) responds: That is absolutely true, but I would hold that it doesn't actually disprove the point. Would this be like saying "I am black, therefore I cannot be racist against blacks."? (And some black people do have racist views.) Much of the Jewish community recognizes the Neturei Karta as being blatantly anti-semetic. No double-standard; if a Jew, Muslim or Christian hates Jews, they response (as a matter of intellectual honesty) needs to be the same.

: How can a Jew be racist against Jews? Do Neturei Karta members want to send themselves to the concentration camps or back to the ghettos?

Huh? Who said anything about racism? Hating someone for their religious or political beliefs may well be bigotry, and can even be hateful, but that doesn't make it "racist", nor does it make it "shoplifting". Use the right words. And where did you come up with your own unique definition of antisemitism? According to you, unless someone wants to mass murder all Jews in concentration camps, then they are not to be considered antisemitic? That is ludicrous, and outrageous. Following your view, even the Ku Klux Klan, the Nation of Islam, and Hamas are all NOT antisemetic. Or has this been your agenda all along? To legitimzie Jew-hatred?

SJK asks "Do Neturei Karta members want to reintroduce the Nuremberg Laws? (No, but Meir Kahane, a Zionist, wanted to reintroduce the ban on sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews, although for reasons of anti-Gentilism not anti-Semitism.) Do Neturei Karta members teach that Jews drink the blood of Christian babies, are involved in secret conspiracies with Communists and bankers to rule the world?"

No, SJK, the Neturei Karta do not make those specific claim, but they do teach other equally hateful things about all Jews. They teach that all Jews are LITERALLY releasing demonic forces within the land of Israel, and are therefore on the side of evil incarnate, and that they deserved the be slaughtered by the Nazis. If you do not think that such violent hatespeech is antisemitic, then you can also say that the Nazis, Neo-Nazis, KKK, and Hamas are all also not antisemitic. But given your recent comments, that seems to be your agenda.

: I would certaintly class Nazis, Neo-Nazis, and the KKK as anti-Semitic. (I do not know enough about Hamas to judge if they are anti-Semitic or not.) But they are very different from Neturei Karta.

You say Neturei Karta "do teach other equally hateful things about all Jews". Since they are Jews, does it follow they teach these things about themselves? If they are saying these things about themselves also, it follows the things they say aren't hateful. But if they are not saying these things about themselves, it follows that they are not saying these things about all Jews, only some. Either way, they are not saying anything anti-Semitic; of course they aren't, because they are Jews, and a Jewish anti-Semite is an oxymoron. -- Simon J Kissane

: Your diatribe borders on cognotive dissonance. This group is antisemitic since they teach hatred of Jews. No, they don't teach hatred of themselves - but they DO teach hatred of all other Jews in the world. If your brain cannot grasph this plain and simply fact as anitsemitism, I feel sorry for you. Sadly, you keep claiming that since some fringe extremist ultra-Orthodox have antisemeitic views, these antisemetic views are somehow no longer antisemetic. That's garbage.

: They don't teach hatred of Jews. They (according to you -- as I said I don't exactly know) teach hatred of other Jews; but they can't be antisemites because they are Jews. To take a different example: suppose some guy, let's call him Jack, is a Protestant and he hates Catholics. Now it is true that he is anti-Catholic, but he isn't anti-Christian because he is a Christian. Or another example: Ahmed is a Sunni and he hates Shi'a. Now it is true he is anti-Shi'a, but he is not anti-Muslim because he is a Muslim. In the same way, Neturei Karta may well be anti-Reform Judaism, anti-Masorti, anti-Modern Orthodox, and anti heaps of other Jewish groups as well, but that doesn't make them antisemitic any more than Jack hating Catholics makes him anti-Christian or Ahmed hating Shi'a makes him anti-Muslim. -- SJK

SJK asks - Do they publish cartoons showing Jews with long noses? Do they say Hitler was a hero and the Holocaust never happened? They don't. They do none of these things. Therefore they are not anti-Semitic. "Jewish anti-Semtitism" is an invention of intra-Jewish propaganda, plain and simple. -- SJK.

I have seen many of SJK's anti-Jewish views on this project, but in recent days he has exposed himself as someone who as a special enmity towards Jewish people and the Jewish faith. That is rather unfortunate.

: RK, I am getting really sick and tired of your constant abusive use of terms such as "anti-semitism". I have absolutely nothing against Jews as a religion or an ethnic group. I do disagree with many of Israel's policies, and disagree with Zionism; but my reasons for doing so are not anti-Semitic at all. You seem to almost want to redefine anti-Semitism to mean "anyone who disagrees with me". I not only find that sort of rhetoric very offensive to myself, I also think it shows disrespect to the victims of real anti-Semitism. -- Simon J Kissane

Fringe groups exist in all communities, after all. There are some Christian extremist groups that promote virulent hatred against most Christians, except (of course) themselves. Same thing happens in other religions as well. Even mainstream Orthodox Jews from the rabbinical Council of America have now denounced the Neturei Karta as antisemitic.

http://www.ou.org/torah/grossman/2000/031100.htm

On the other hand, disagreeing with some of Israel's policies or laws is NOT anti-Zionist nor is it anti-semitic. It would only be antisemitic if that person repeatedly criticized Israel and Jews only on such views, and repeatedly let similar laws or policies in other countries pass without equal criticism, and continued such a stance for a length of time.

Deninal of the existence of Arab antisemitism and of ultra-Orthodox antisemitism is in of itself the most evil form of antisemitism; it is precisely this behavior that allows antisemits to thrive and suceed.

: As I said above, "ultra-Orthodox antisemitism" does not exist. Ultra-Orthodox are Jews, Jews cannot be anti-Semites, therefore there is no such thing as ultra-Orthodox antisemitism. To say this isn't to be antisemitic, it is to apply simple logic and common sense. Claiming that some ultra-Orthodox groups are antisemitic is simply propaganda.

Nonsense. Denying the existence of this antisemitism is like claiming that the world is flat.

: I am not denying the existence of antisemitism. Plenty of it exists in the world. All I am denying is that there are Jewish antisemites. A Jewish antisemite is like a black white supremacist -- they simply can't exist. SJK

: Anyone who claims that black racists don't exists has obviously never lived in the black community, and has never had black friends. There are a small number of self-hating black people, and the rest of the black community is not at all happy about this. And I am not talking about black Republicans, who some ultra-liberal black extremists pretend are anti-black. (they are not.) I am talking about black people who really, really don't like black people. Just because they shouldn't exist doesn't mean that they don't exist. RK

If Neteuri Karta hate all other Jews (which I somewhat doubt, but I will take your word for it for the sake of the argument), they are still not anti-Semites, because they are Jews. They both consider themselves Jews, and they are generally recognized to be Jews. Therefore they cannot be antisemites. Plenty of other people can be and are antisemites. But for a Jew it is impossible to be an antisemite. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this simple piece of common sense. -- SJK

An encyclopaedia is not a place for someone with what can only be described as an anti-Jewish agenda. You might as well claim that black people don't take each other slaves in the Sudan and practice racism against each other (they do). You just can't make up "facts" to further your agenda. You have to deal with what actually exists in the real world.

: Well in Sudan IIRC its a case of Arabs enslaving blacks, not blacks enslaving each other -- but even if it isn't in that case, it's true that blacks have enslaved each other plenty of times before in history. But that isn't racism. How can it be possibly racist for a black person to enslave another black person? Immoral, yes; but racist, no. -- SJK

: RK: Have you ever considered that someone might disagree equally with policies that Israel has and policies that other countries have, yet publicly put most emphasis on Israeli misdeeds because of considerations of political relavance. The Middle East Conflict is a topic of constant interest in international politics. And one might simply evaluate that, looking at the evidence, Israel at present is more in the wrong than the Arabs are. Whether one is right or wrong to think that, it need not in any way be motivated by anti-Semitism. -- SJK.

A non sequitor.

This is nonsense. There are black racists, there are self-hating homoseuxals, and there are some anti-Semitic ultra-Orthodox Jews. These are indisputable facts. Don't be a self-righteous intellectual snob who enjoys rewriting the dictionary in order to show the world how bright you are. Police have documented attacks and beatings on homosexuals by men who have later turned out to have latent homosexual tendencies. If you deny this, you might as well rewrite history as well as the dictionary. Similarly, in Israel and America virtulent hatespeech is published against all Jews on the planet, by certain ultra-Orthodox sects. (The propagators of the hatred, of course, somehow find a way not to target themselves). Please stop denying the existence of such things. The task is to describe them, and not to write them out of existence. RK

One recurring statement here is that a Jew cannot be an anti-semite (anti-semitist?). This assumes that a person cannot hate him/herself. That assumption is definitely false. Also, I have this ...feeling... that the /talk page is due for a bit of cooling down...

SJK is saying that by definition a person cannot practice racism towards other members of his ethnic group.

: And this is delusional. Police reports prove this wrong. We are trying to describe the real world, not what we wish the world would be look. RK

If racism means to view some other group of people as inferior to your own because of their race, it would be impossible to do this if you were actually a member of this racial group. Unless racism is defined differently then I suppose that what RK is suggesting is a contradiction. -- sodium

: No, you have missed the point entirely. First off, hating Jews isn't racism because Judaism isn't a race. Similarly, hating homosexuals isn't racism, because homosexuals aren't a race. Third, you totally misunderstand the psychology of the people who do such things. Anyone who does such things developes elaborate psychological defense mechanisms to rationalise why they themselves don't fall into the category that they are attacking. Again, you are describing what you think ought to exist, rather than what does exist. RK

Why was the following example deleted? For example, Palestinian television programs for kindergarten age children feature songs about becoming suicide-bombers, and drenching shopping malls with Jewish blood; and textbooks that deny the very existence of the State of Israel. Children who have grown up in this atmosphere don't even see themselves as anti-Semitic. This, and other similar actions, is the primary cause of middle-eastern anti-Semitism. It is taught to toddlers and children at an early age, and then is reinforced in middle school and high-school. Or is someone claiming that these actions are not anti-Semetic? RK

: No, you have missed the point entirely...

I don't believe I have missed the point. I was trying to sum up SJKs position: "All I am denying is that there are Jewish antisemites."

: First off, hating Jews isn't racism because Judaism isn't a race. Similarly, hating homosexuals isn't racism, because homosexuals aren't a race

Actually Judaism is a race as well as a religion, stated on the main Anti-Semitism page. This is irrelevant anyway, broadly I was talking about any group which finds any other group inferior because of some attribute.

: Third...

Where was the second point :-)?

: ..., you totally misunderstand the psychology of the people who do such things

SJK was simply arguing over the *definition* of antisemitism. Antisemites claim Jews are inferior because of their race/religion. You have to be from another race/religion to do this - it is impossible to find yourself inferior. Inferior to what? Are you saying that some Jews hate the rest of the jewish community? This would undoubtedly be a bad thing, but it is not antisemitism. -- sodium

: I see what you mean, but I would point out that this is not the sole definition of anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is hatred of Jews, period. There are many anti-Semites who hate Jews only because of their beliefs and practices, and not because of their ethnicity. These people don't argue that Jews are inherently inferior in a genetic or spritual sense; they hate something about Jews (something which may be real, such as their resistence to assimilation, or ability to gain good jobs, or something which may be imaginary, such as the belief that Jews are greedy and spiteful.) RK

I'm sure a lot of people would still consider a Jew hating (or believing inferior) his own race to be antisemitic or racist, but I would call that some form of self-loathing, since at least its not based on a superiority complex. And yes, it does exist.

Another thing I am not fully clear on: according to a book I have read ("Telling it like it Isn't", I forget the name of the author) there is biologically no such thing as "race." The author of that book stated, basically, that the difference between the "average genotype" of one "race" and that of another is so small as to be negligible; he said that the more correct term would be "ethnic group." Do you have any information on that theory? It seems like it would be very relevant to this article.

Whether or not the concept of race has any biological significance (it probably doesn't), it nonetheless clearly has political significance for many people, and this is an article about politics, not genetics. The book you mention should probably be mentioned by an article about Race itself (if it isn't already), but it as no significance here. --LDC