Theory of evolution/Talk

My biology teacher defined it a little different. Evolution is the change of gene frequency over generations. This is in observable fact. The Evolutionary Theory states that the diversity of life on earth is due to evolution. I think the history should be seperate (whether on another page or heading), as it kind of gets in the way of the scientific theory as we now know it. - Eean

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Note, however, that the link contradicts the assertion of "numerous observed cases". The link states: "The literature on observed speciations events is not well organized. I found only a few papers that had an observation of a speciation event as the author's main point."

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Note, this does not mean numerous cases have not been observed.

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It means that what is surely the most momentous event in biology, the transformation of one species into another, was asserted as the "main point" in only a "few" papers, and was relegated to a lesser status in all other papers. In common usage, "few" does not mean "numerous". In science as it is commonly practiced, researchers do not downplay momentous observations.

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The link lists _numerous_ cases.

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"The observed fact that speciation in vertebrates results in non-breeding animals explains the complete absence of intermediate forms in the fossil evidence for vertebrate evolution."

The above quoted statement was deleted from this page because someone felt that "he didn't think it made sense". What he means is that he did not agree with it, and so, in the true spirit of scientific debate, he just made it disappear.

I don't think it does make sense. First, non-breeding animals seems to imply mules or such; it should say non-breeding populations. But even in that case, that the final pops are non-breeding doesn't to me explain why there wouldn't be intermediate forms.

Saying it doesn't make sense greatly understates the case: it is in fact a deliberate lie. Nothing can "explain the absence of intermediate forms" when there are in fact thousands of intermediate forms in the fossil record, and to deny their existence is either painfully ignorant or dishonest. Other opinions have a place here in Wikipedia. Lies and deception do not. --LDC

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For instances of transitional vertebrate fossils, see: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

Nonsense will continue to be deleted.

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Thus, with force, does Dogma always speak. --- Dogma my ass. Pointing out evidence that refutes nonsense claims is not dogma. The claim, "of course, speciation has never been observed" is nonsense and was deleted. The claim that there is "a complete absence" of transitional vertebrate fossils is nonsense and was deleted. Stop making up facts. Stop ignoring the evidence. Stop whining when this is not tolerated.

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The above link doesn't go anywhere.

 Try: 

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html+transitional+vertebrate+fossils&hl=en

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"A theory of evolution is an attempt to scientifically explain how evolution occurs." Both Intelligent Design and Creationism are unscientific attempts to explain evolution (say the majority of biological scientists). It should be stated that these are religious beliefs rather than science, and they should not have such prominence on the page. Calling Natural selection "Darwinism" implies that it is an ideology (like communism/socialism etc...) whereas it is totally scientific and is altered by new evidence that researchers find.

Similarly, just because creationism is "believed by 4 out of 10 Americans" does not have any influence on how scientifically true the theories are. If "4 out of 10" geneticists believed the theory it would have relevance, but nothing like this number do.

I also don't really see the difference between a page on the "Theory of evolution", as opposed to the theory "Evolution".

 -- sodium

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I'm going to do some major surgery here, because Ed's additions here are more than merely biased, they're just plain wrong. As you correctly point out, creationist theories are not scientific theories at all, and the text here implies that they are. Secondly, the "4 out of 10" claim is not just irrelevant, it's ludicrous. It probably counts everyone who attends some church with a position, and doesn't reflect actual beliefs at all. Even if there are genuine surveys on the issue, the only way to honestly include them here would be to clearly reference their source and the exact questions asked. --LDC

I did not say that creationist theories are not scientific theories, only that Sudden Creationism is not a scientific theory. I hold Intelligent Design as a scientific hypotheses equal in merit to Darwin's theory that species origianated without divine intervention. If he can mention God, so can I. --Ed Poor

Intelligent design is a legitimate theory, and should be covered. But it is not a scientific one. "Scientific" implies falsifiable, and ID doesn't qualify. --LDC

Okay, I'll bite. How can we disprove Darwin's hypotheses that God didn't specially create any species in the last 100 million years or so? --Ed Poor

Darwinian evolution seems to boil down to, "We see new species popping up in the fossil record, and we don't want to give God the credit. Maybe radiation mutated the genes." So, where's the proof for the mutation hypothesis? --Ed Poor

How about something more like, "We can actually see and document changes to DNA from radiation, we can measure the rate of change in bacteria when we apply specific amounts of radiation to them in the lab, and we can measure the rate of background radiation on Earth, and it matches nicely with the rate of change we observe in bacteria on Earth, and it is quite sufficient to explain evolution, so we don't need to make up any other explanations out of whole cloth to account for it." If you're really that ignorant about the facts of science and biology, you shouldn't be criticizing them. Study some real science, prove that you know what you're talking about, and then come back and criticize. We might be more inclined to listen. --LDC

Hmm. Maybe we need an [Evolution Debate]? page.

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It would be interesting to have a reference to the survey (e.g. for example where conducted and how many participants). -- HJH

"Gallup polls have shown that about 45 percent of Americans believe God created living things in their present form a few thousand years ago; about 40 percent believe that things evolved over a long time with God’s guidance; while only a little more than 10 percent accept Darwin’s theory that things evolved through unguided natural selection and random variations." -- quoted from http://www.discovery.org/viewDB/index.php3?program=CRSC&command=view&id=1053 by Ed Poor

The "Discovery Institute" is not a credible source; we need to see the actual Gallup data, including the exact wording of the questions asked and the method of choosing the sample set. --LDC

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All of the following iscommentary, and doesn't belong on the main page (or else belongs on some other page):

Natural selection suggests that a species adapts to changes in the environment, as a result of randomly occurrring genetic mutations. These mutations can alter the individual's physical shape or the inner workings of the body so that organs may change their shape or size or the immune system may develop a different reaction towards disease. After the mutation has occurred, it's up to nature to test that change in real life. If the change benefits the individual, the individual is most likely to have a better chance of survival. Otherwise, the individual will most likely die and the faulty mutation will be discarded. Often these processes last thousands of years due to the slow rate of mutations as well as the lifespan of the individual, although it seems that in some cases evolution can occur unbelievably quickly, within a few generations (Punctuated Equilibrium).

/Talk1

Evolution by natural selection has been observed so many times that it is now considered a fact.

No, many Darwinists regard Evolution by Random Mutation to be true, but scientists still consider it a theory. Let's not confuse Fact, Theory, and Law. A fact is you see the sun rise and go across the sky. A theory is, e.g., that the sun revolves around a stationary earth; or, that the earth revolves on its axis. A law is, e.g., that a massive object subject to a radial force inversely proportional to the radius will travel in an ellipse. -- Ed Poor

There have been numerous observed cases of speciation, especially in plants (see [link] for more details). Speciation has not been observed per se in vertebrates?, although there are numerous examples of no-longer breeding subpopulations.

I followed that link and found a very long, impenetrable article but no observed cases of speciation in plants. Could you digest that article for me and put the example on the wiki, please? Inquiring minds want to know. --Ed Poor

Possibly http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html, section 5.0

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Would it be fair to define the theory of evolution in terms of "macroevolution through random variations and natural selection"? Ed Poor

That's a reasonable definition of Darwin's theory of evolution. However, "theory of evolution is a general term; Darwin's isn't the only one. It is a common misconception that "evolution", "theory of evolution", "natural selection" and "Darwinism" are all interchangable terms. --STG

I am primarily concerned with the definition of the theory of evolution as in the sentence, "Only about 10% of Americans accept the theory of evolution." I believe this refers to the neo-Darwinian synthesis which entails random variations and natural selection, in contrast to creationism and/or intelligent design. Ed Poor

For that sentence to be true, it would have to involve a defintion that specifically rejected God; but even if you posit a reasonable defintion that would make that sentence true, it would nonetheless be deliberately deceptive and have no place in an encyclopedia. So avoid the problem: don't say that. We already have good coverage of the average American's belief in the Gallup study, which is reported here completely, accurately, and honestly. Besides, since when is the general public's belief about a scientific theory relevant to anything? Science isn't about belief, that's a religious thing. --LDC

As I said, it is incorrect to say "the theory of evolution". If you say "the Darwinian theory of evolution", your definition is correct. --STG

But I'm following the usage in the article: The commonly accepted scientific theory today is called the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis, . . . In popular usage, "the" theory of evolution refers to this or other Darwinian theories. (I'll change, if all agree.) Ed Poor

I'd like to see one consistent usage of "theory of evolution" throughout the wikipedia. How can we distinguish between any old theory of evolution and "the theory of evolution accepted by science"? Ed Poor

I agree; it's a reasonable definition of one such theory, but I think the text as it currently is is better. --LDC