I know all you history buffs will love a web site i found that links the Merovingians to the Annanuki, Atlanteans, and somehow to a Divine Race. No this is not the "divine right of kings" idea.
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[Merovingian Mythos]]
I had a look at this. It is likely to appeal to people interested in mythology and legend more than, or as well as, hard history (includes me). The Atlantean mythos certainly needs a good going over by someone who knows what they are on about. sjc
- Oh no! Next we'll be into the Holy Blood Holy Grail stuff about the Merovingians as the lineal descendents of Jesus and Mary Magdalene and how Charlemagne and the Church suppressed all this! Medieval history is complicated enough without conspiracy theory added to it. There's an excellent book whose first third explains the Carolingian takeover as well as anything in English - Rosamund Mckitterick's Frankish Kingdoms under the Carolingians. --MichaelTinkler
- My fears exactly. I thought it best to jump on top of it before it gets out of hand :-) sjc
- It is clearly true that conspiracies have a role in history, although not necessarily one as severe as that claimed by some authors. As well, there doesn't appear to be any Prima Facie reason why the (possibly) historical character of Jesus could not have had children who were somehow transported to Europe. Also, the Catholic Church was, as I understand it, complicit in withholding certain of the Dead Sea Scrolls, so I don't understand why you treat the scholarship of Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln with such derision. It is certainly more well-documented than the history books with which I was taught in High School, which are meant to be accepted as fact.
- Sorry to sound upset, but I'm just not sure how your objections to "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" are valid. Alex Kennedy
Not to worry. I am not going to insult the excellent history writers on wiki with my own views. The link was provided mainly for entertainment.
- Hi Alex -- just so you know, Michael Tinkler and I are both perfeshnul medievalists -- my specialty is 7th through 10th c. Francia. The fact that HBHG is well documented doesn't count for a lot -- they don't really use their sources critically, and there JUST ISN'T ANY PROOF! I'll leave the rest of this to some of the others -- I've only read the book once -- I know there are other wikipedians who have actually read it more than that! JHK
codswallop. Maybe I should add it to lectures to spice things up?
JHK
Indubitably... it had me in stitches. sjc
I'll give one example from the HBHG mythos. Baigent et al. claim that one of their main sources of information was in periodical folders in the Bibliotheque Nationale, and that each time they went and requested the folder there was different information in it.
Someone was feeding them the information, they deduced. In other words, they have insulated themselves against verification and/or falsifiability on the part of other working scholars by saying 'even if you went and requested the folder you wouldn't necessarily find what we found.' That is not helpful. It's not scholarship. It's fiction. Of course the mythical Priory of Sion could be in secret control of the largest library in France, and could wait and watch for Baigent, but why? Their reasons for why this dark secret was revealed to
them (which, given their 'research methodology' of going and re-requesting the same folder, it must have been a process of revelation) is also, to say the least, unconvincing. If you want to read a real scholar of 'things esoteric' who works in such a way that others can, at least, read the same things she's reading and see if she's interpreting them correctly or not, try Frances Yates on
The Rosicrucian Enlightenment ASIN: 0710073801,
The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age ISBN 0415254094 (
amazon.com,
search),
The Art of Memory ISBN 071265545X (
amazon.com,
search), and
Giordano Bruno and the hermetic tradition ISBN 0226950077 (
amazon.com,
search). She's the
real deal. Michael Baigent, on the other hand, works for the BBC equivalent of 'In Search Of.' Sorry to sound like an academic snob, but there it is. --
MichaelTinkler
Alright, well, you have no disagreement that the information found in the bibliotheque Nationale is not reliable, although it wasn't used as "reliable" information
per se in the book. Keep in mind that they have many sources other than that folder, and that they use that folder within the book as exactly what you imply it is, a mouthpiece of the Priory. But, as I said in an earlier post to this article which seems to have been erased somehow, what's important to me is not so much whether Baigent
et al are correct, but that certain esoteric traditions and feelings be exemplified; and thus I'd be just as happy if there were a reference to the idea of a hidden and valid King who can bring about a more true rule than the present authority from the books you like. Unfortunately, I have not read Ms. Yates.
Also, while I may not be wise to say so, I must admit to being a little insulted by your peer (JHK's) seeming implication that if I say something, and a qualified professional disagrees with it, I should simply shut up and take their knowledgeable word for it.
- Not implying you shoyld shut up at all -- but definitely think it's fair to let you know when you are dealing with people who have done more than cursory research in the area. I certainly don't know everything, but when I assert myself on this site, it's because I have read enough on a particular subject to teach that subject. Judging the reliability of sources and being aware of current scholarship are part of my training, and it is likely that I would be more aware of those things than someone who has read a couple of general books on a topic. I've learned a lot from other wikipedians -- especially Simon Kissane, sjc, rmherman, and WojPob -- but I've also met up with people whose approach is not conducive to generating good scholarly articles. JHK
- Well, I understand what you mean, in that it is useful to "drop" the initial "formality" of making sure that every one is on the same page, so to speak, about what information we're adressing. The problem here, however, is that I am not a professional historian, and have no training in history whatsoever. As a scientist, I'm expected to explain scientific concepts in the simplest terms possible, so that others can understand why I hold the opinions I do, while still respecting their intelligence enough to give them the information required to truly make a decision. I believe that the same should hold, even for historians :P. In other words, I prefer something like Dr. Tinkler's reply, which had a factual argument with which I can agree or disagree (and I disagreed with it, in fact) rather than your initial reply which, useful though it was in guaging your learned opinion and qualifications, didn't give me anything to work with regarding why you dislike HBHG so much. Anyway, you give me a very precious gift in your time considering these issues, so I hope sincerely that you are not offended by what I say.
- How could I be offended? You're asking perfectly sensible questions, and everybody has a right to disagree. And please believe me -- I don't necessarily believe that having degrees makes one an expert -- but I tend to think that it's more likely that someone who has made a regimented study of a subject probably knows a bit more than someone who hasn't -- for example, I'd probably not argue with you on anything having to do with the life (or probably other) sciences, or with AxelBoldt on anything having to do with math -- but might ask questions. I know my limitations. If you're interested in learning more about sources and historical method, try looking at the links on the History page, and perhaps some of the Talk pages where some of us have spent lots of time trying to illustrate the criteria for good history. Some possible subjects: Prussia, Widewut, Copernicus, History of Christianity, Gdansk...
Oh -- as for HBHG, Honestly, I haven't read it in so long that I just remember it's wrong, wrong, wrong -- we actually discussed it and its methodology in a seminar once. I was fairly sure Michael Tinkler could provide the details, because he's the kind of person who has always checked them out for himself! No hard feelings on either side, then?
J Hofmann Kemp aka JHK
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