Wikipedia: J Hofmann Kemp/Talk

Just dropped by to welcome you to Wikipedia, and to say that you've gone way beyond the call of duty in certain historical discussions; in such cases you should feel free to change or remove material that is not up to encyclopedic standards. -- STG

Hello! Thanks for joining us and staying on top of those questionable history entries. History is certainly an area where we need more solid hands like yourself. --LMS

No culpae necessary, J -- my outburst was directed at 207.X.X.X the Prussian Apologist. He/she/they/it copy-and-pasted in (again) her bizarre additions and really screwed things up. I think h/s/t/i is not opening the source text of the version she is trying to revert to, and that doesn't work very well....Yes, I just double-checked and it was version 21 from 207 that broke everything, not you -- Paul Drye

View revisions, and then view the particular revision you want. Amongst the links at the bottom is "Edit Revision XX of this page" (and a fanatical devotion to the Pope). Select that, then you can copy and paste the source of the revision, saving links and lists and my precious sanity :) -- Paul Drye

Just wanted to apologize to any non-cranks (normal, critically thinking, wikipedians), especially those of German citizenship and WWII buffs, for my bold oversimplification of the issues surrounding the Nazi era. Just trying to keep my sanity and hoping that Jimbo will come up with a "reach out and slap someone" button in the near future. JHK

He won't; the traffic surge would crash the server. --KQ

That "reach out and slap someone" comment is hardly contributory, even if it's meant as a joke. Your own edits, such as the redirecting/deleting of Heimatvertriebenen after I had spent an hour or two researching the subject, to the Diaspora studies entry you wrote, which is confusing and poorly thought-out, was extremely piquing. --TheCunctator

So blatant that I don't understand the objection, J....I picked that particular word in order to highlight Frederick's motive: to force his way up the pecking order of dukes and kings. In what way is "feudal" an inappropriate description of his behaviour? Prussia needs to be changed too if the choice is inappropriate -- Paul Drye

Hmm, I will try to rephrase then, without losing what I see as the key point. The whole rebranding (no pun intended...ok, it was kind of intended) as "Prussia" makes no sense to the uninitiated without getting across the fact that it was all about technicalities. Come to think, I'll have to go back to my old entry on Savoy and see what I said about the whole Savoy-Piedmont -> Kingdom of Sardinia thing...same trick, different actors, after all. -- Paul Drye

Works for me. Fixed Savoy too, plus another instance of my earlier mental block that there's a "the" in "War of the Spanish Succession" too. Bonus! -- Paul Drye

We have quite a few minor wars around here concerning general policy and specific edits. Never take it personally; just make your points and listen to and consider your opponant's counterarguments (if any are made, of course. ;-) -- STG

nice feudalism! I changed 'preached a story that said' to 'told this story:'. Other than that, my revisions were minor. I added headers to make the 2 models clearer to layfolks (I hope) and changed a 'former' to an emphasized homage and emphasized the following fealty. --MichaelTinkler

Hi , I see you are happily "slashing away' again. It is going to take me a while, to answer to your one note , that I came across ( the long one). In the meanwhile I found a word , that is all encompassing and no one has come up with a negative touch yet : Displaced persons . I believe if you start a section with displaced persons you have a chance of not getting it destroyed.

                              H. Jonat

Not slashing away, just putting things into proper perspective. Displaced persons is a great term, and should probably be cross-referenced with the entries in Diaspora studies -- have you looked at these yet? Otherwise, just updating those entries that have suffered from an over use of faulty methodology and misuse of sources to prove a personal POV... JHK

I know,

I really meant the slashers and all their "charming" comments.

The diaspora site is very good and you have put a lot of work into it. For me it is all too overwhelming , especially right now with that replay of yet another creation of another refugee group , and on and on it goes . I just wish that there would have been someone to start a study as to why and how all these situations arise in our times to cause all this. Alfred de Zaya called for a study chair on refugeees/expelles . I can tell you it is not wise for anyone to put too much time into this . All you get is abuse and worse. John Sack (Eye for an Eye), who documented 1200 prison camps in Silesia, where Communists killed and tortured Germans , was only able to do so because he is of Jewish faith himself and he is already very old. People are persecuted in Canada, for saying that they are refugees. If you are looking for a job, pick some frivolous pleasant subject. Displaced person is much more political correct. H. Jonat

I *liked* the concubine thing (having written it myself!). What happened is that I've been distracted -- I mean to come back and write a little about Charlemagne and women - marriages, concubines, etc., and his daughters are a nice way into it. Oh, well. It can wait. --MichaelTinkler

We should ask for a cron job on most-frequently misspelled words. "Separate" would probably be up there (53 just turned up; I left a lot of the ones on Talk pages). But if we include incorrectly-used homonyms (and why not? they are different words) there/their/they're has it hands down. Maybe Malcom Farmer can write us a script. ;-) --KQ

: You can search on word combinations. In the vast majority of cases "their" is preceded by words like "with...", "of..." and "by...". "There" is usually followed by words such as "will, is, was". "They're" is usually followed by a gerund (...walking, riding, etc).

That's an idea. Actually I was joking; it's a bit more work than I'd care to volunteer for (though if the project were started already, I'd work on it occasionally). I think I'll just correct them as I find them. :-) --KQ

: <many giggles> I just people would realize that it really weakens an otherwise decent article...<sigh> But my good news for the night is that I've found a few decent sources on Siebenbuergen (all in German, of course), and will be able to write a good revision tomorrow. I anticipate that it may demonstrate that Siebenbuergen is not by nature German after all -- but, it seems that there's been a German-speaking group there since the 18th century (sorry -- it's just a really cool story...) -- or is that its a really cool story? JHK

________________________________________________________________

As you are demonstrating with your Siebenbuergen article , you need to know German language to find out history.

The same goes for the Albert I Brandenburg deal. Type in Albert I Brandenburg in www.webtop.com or altavista and you will get Albert of Brandenburg Prussia 1470-1568 or 19th and 20th century Alberts, all kinds of Alberts, like Albert Schweitzer etc.

But to get info on ( Albert I Brandenburg) you n e e d to know that he was Albrecht der Baer : Engl. the Baer ).

                                          H. Jonat

Oh For Lord's sake, Helga! My German is actually fairly good -- it has to be, because the German government made me pass a test in order to study there and because I had no problem taking University courses (including turning in fairly lengthy papers and projects) IN GERMAN, and got the highest possible grades. I taught English in a language school, where the director offered to help me find work teaching German here in the states.

The articles I read on Siebenbürgen were in German -- and they said (in much more detail) what I said in my article. The fact that it shows that there is more to the story than your constant attempts to prove that anywhere Germans lived belongs ipso facto to Germany is not my fault -- it's just the facts. Strangely enough, I actually do have a clue here -- I've spent about 13 years now dealing with German historiography and sources. I've got a decent grip on the Orts- and Personennamenkunde that you keep trying to use to prove your points, and know that, while useful, historians the world over now believe that many of the sources you cite are to be taken with a large grain of salt. If I happen to present the prevailing theories, or note that some older theories that you happen to believe are in doubt, that's just basic scholarship. BTW, if you want to check sources, google Siebenbürgen -- I found most of my sources using that engine. If someone finds other sources that contradict what I've written, then they should edit the article accordingly. My only vested interest was in replacing the disjointed crank cant that you put up there with something actually informative.

Finally, I don't really give a damn what you want to call Albert. What I object to is that you continually write identicle articles under separate titles. If Albert the Bear is better than Albert I, fine, make it a separate article and correctly rewrite the one you mistitled in the first place. Don't leave it to the rest of us to clean up your inept English and weak (probably intentionally) scholarship. JHK

I know , that y o u can read it . I did not question your ability to read German. It was not meant for you personally, but in general .

Unfortunately I am asked constantly by older Americans about any of the historical figures and any history . They do not know any of this. In a survey, it showed , that none of them received any instructions in German history at all. From what I am assuming ,this is somewhat better in schools today ?

That article on Albert I was already there.

I am happy that you care. Thank you . H. Jonat

Ummm...I noticed you have a new IP address -- are are there two of you, Frau Helga? It would be really good if you could maybe log in, since you already sign your stuff... or is this a hoax? JHK

well, I use school and home IP addresses myself. --MichaelTinkler

: I used to have three -- but also want to be sure this isn't leg-pulling gone horribly astry...JHK

JHK, please see my request for help in nomenclature on the Samhain/Talk page. This will lead to Catholic saints, purgatory, and relics, Muslim saints, Jewish saints, ghosts, Celtic death-stuff, Mormon dead-folk baptism, and whatever non-western things everyone else wants to start adding, so I think the initial name needs to be fairly clear! --MichaelTinkler

: BTW -- in the Allgäu, they still celebrate a festival very much like a combination of Samhain and the American Hallowe-en. It's one of the few European places I know of that has a "dress up to keep the ghosts from knowing who you are" day...JHK I will work on this more when I get home from the salt mines...

Errrr, you're welcome! (Looks puzzled). Good luck in the tree-grinding business, by the way -- my dad did that for a while many a year ago.... Paul Drye

Well, HJ's tooth-hurting punctuation beat me down for a while, but I thought if I rushed at it all at once....Paul Drye

hey, the punctuation's the least problematic part -- it's when you combine it with missing words and coherent thought that it gives me a problem! JHK

: Better yet, HJ decided on a minor excursion into the field of Norse Mythology, with some bizarre nonsense about some alleged documents allegedly destroyed for some alleged reason... >>REVERT MODE: ON<< sjc

Message for Larry Sanger et al. Please check table in Old Prussian Language -- I'm fairly sure the table is lifted directly from a book or perhaps a non-public domain website.

Don't be shy about putting the above sort of message on my page; I might have missed this one...

Possibly [this page]? I don't know if that would constitute a violation, if so. Do you have a specific resource in mind? --Larry Sanger

Just wanted to say that your attempts to deal with the Collected Works of HJ are valiant. It feels like we're trying to communicate with an alien. --TheCunctator

Actually, it was horse breeding that I moved. But I'll go and get Horse Breeds now. :) --STG

: Oh wait, you already moved it. I'll go do something else now. --STG

We need to get active on the primary and secondary source entries, so that we can just refer. I'm getting tired of retyping arguments! --MichaelTinkler

: You're right -- feel free to add to my to do list...I am now going for writing and editing sans explanation, I think!

Alas, Boots!

: I'll send you pix one of these days, along with one of the gargoyle I got for my birthday -- still trying to come up with a name -- torn between Ambrose and Kenny, among others. Boots is/was definitely the best feline friend I've ever had, though. Beats the non-feline gargoyle hands down!

JHK: Purely out of curiousity, what does the "J" in your name stand for? -- SJK

Oh, there was no great emergency regarding Prussia this time. Larry Sanger was asking if "Old Prussi Land" should not just be redirected to "Prussia", and Stephen Gilbert and I convinced him that deletion was the better option.

Sorry about your cat. -- Paul Drye

SJK -- It's Julie, aka Jules. I think this means I'm still not a guy (for those who persist in thinking I am...). I do watch 6-8 hours of footie a week and change my own tires, though!

Paul Drye: Thanks for the kind thoughts. I just had this horrible feeling the page had been re-done!

Have a good day, all -- off to the stinky mill! JHK

Alan -- I'm not trying to be pain, but doesn't the Bos in the Latin name for Aurochs make it a Cow / Cattle / thingy, and not a Bison? JHK

Yay, Hanseatic League! So, hard at work on the Smalkalds? --MichaelTinkler, junior taskmaster.

FWIW, I've also run across encounters with the wilfully ignorant. I've decided that if someone insists on doing something I think is just wrong, after a few attempts to correct it, I leave it alone. It will not stand for long. Someone else always fixes it, and I spare myself frustration. :-) --Dmerrill

I took out "learned history graduates" and replaced it with "many". JHK you constantly write snide remarks to other wikipedians about my entries on subjects you don't know about . I am assuming that you are referring to this quote . If the truth of the article is too strong for your taste , then look at the Masovia entry, where "yes it was conquered by Polish dukes", was immediately proudly verified. If someone else objects to stating it like it is, let them "water it down". Do me a favor , get enough sleep and do look at a map when I ask you to repeatedly. It does help and then you will not put Luebeck in the communist GDR again , you won't mix up Masuria and Masovia ( which a lot of other people do too) and you can stop sniping at me. We'll both appreciate it ( and thereby I can fully appreciate your fine contributions).

As with the Aurochs , all you had to do , is what Paul Dry did, state the site that gives the exact location and for the time being clarify the question I posted several times, as to whether it was Masovia or Masuria. And do not try to tell me again, that Masovia in German is Masuria. Konrad von Masovien and Cymburga von Masovien ,mother of Habsburg emperorFrederick III, are well known in German history (or at least used to be). H. Jonat

Right -- the problem here is that generally I don't write something down until I've researched it. As I explained before, in this case, I had read three articles on the Aurochs, all of which specifically said Masovia, which we all agree is in Poland. I didn't notice that someone had changed the Masovia that I wrote to Masuren -- only that you were claiming that the event took place in Prussia. I don't generally check out links that people post, nor do I post them, because I generally looks at several sites and frequently books I own before I start writing. I don't trust the web in most cases, and will only take something from a web site if I can verify it on at least two separate sites.

I have spent so much time reading stuff you've written that ignores any good historical methodology and in which you refuse to accept well thought out arguments against opinions that you have not been able to support, most of which have to do with your inability to accept that Prussia was not always the same entity you believe it was. Unfortunately, this time I didn't realize that you were under a real misapprehension and not just trying to show again that something that didn't belong to Prussia really did. If you go back, you will see that I was talking about Masovia from the beginning, and didn't confuse it till you started speaking about Masuren.

I'm sorry that you don't like my "so-called" sniping -- so-called because I generally say flat out what I mean. Any sniping that does exist is an attempt to avoid being as blunt as I would be if I knew you personally. Early on, I tried to be tactful and help suggest ways you could write better history. That is something I do know a lot about. So do others who have tried to explain legitimate reasons for editing your stuff. You just ignore anything you don't agree with. I will be happy to stop trying to argue with you, because it's fairly soul-destroying for me. I will, however, continue to edit your articles, which are generally badly written, badly researched, and more often promote your personal agenda rather than an informative NPOV. I will also reserve my right to not explain my changes more than once. I hope that satisfies you, because IMO, it's more than you deserve at this point. J Hofmann Kemp

To J Hofmann Kemp . Ok, I accept your apology ( 1/2 apology ?), since you are still name-calling. You are welcome to edit my stuff and I apologize , that I do not write like you do your perfect American English language. I have never set foot in an American classroom, except just recently I took two beginners computer classes and I did get an A in both of them. I do not have enough time left in my life to reach your level of perfect American English language skills and I am therefore concentrating on substance rather than style.

(On one of your notes you did write "Masovia, which in German is Masuren" though). How many books on Prussian history do you have ? H. Jonat

Yes, I did write that, and because I'd been talking about Masovia, I assumed from what you were saying, that we were talking about the same thing and unthinkingly just figured that your Masuren was my Masovia. By the way, I don't ever recall calling you names -- just harshly criticizing your writing and arguments. No one expects you to have perfect American language skills, by the way. However, if you can write well in German, you can write well in English. If written in German the way they are in English, that is, a bunch of barely connected facts and spurious theories, they would also be written badly.

And no books on Prussian history -- why buy when I can use a library. Many books on European History from BC through the 19th c, though. Almost all of the Early Modern books are on Germany. JHK

I think you don't "suck" at wiki at all. :-) So you aren't perfect. A number of the Wikipedians who seem to think they are perfect come across as arrogant dorks. Keep on truckin' :-)

Hmmm, I wonder if the above was directed at me? :) Couldn't be, because I don't think you suck at wiki either. But I agree with you that your history is pretty darn good. --STG

: <having an aw shucks moment...!> Thanks, guys! JHK

On Place-names and their problems, take a look at this: http://www.ifla.org/IV/ifla65/papers/045-94e.htm Very interesting.

--MichaelTinkler

: That's a really good article, although I'm not sure the message would penetrate anywhere where these things are not already self-evident...! JHK

Gazza did play for Lazio. That mask on his damaged face is memorable. but he did'nt achieve much (and I don't rate him) so I did not include him in the list - 62.253.64.xxx

But he broke his leg in a crap tackle/typical Gazza tackle and pretty much never really recovered, right? JHK

: Ruptured his cruciate knee ligaments, actually (1991 [FA Cup Final]?, just before the Lazio move), but other than that, yes. GWO

-- From Holocaust/Talk --

: The physical evidence and the documentary proof, which included records of train shipments of Jews to the camps, orders for tons of cyanide and other poisons, and other explicit details of how the genocide was pursued.

These poisons were officially meant for delousing, so they don't make a really good proof. --Taw

: ummmm is cyanide usually used for delousing?? Sometimes, historians are allowed to make inferences -- especially ones backed up by first hand accounts.JHK

Please see, for example, "The Efficiency of Prussic Acid Fumigation at Low Temperatures" (trans.)

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/peters-rasch-1941/htm/intro000.htm