Wikipedia: Christian views of homosexuality/Talk

(removed a few pedantic quibbles [mine] about fixing grammar)

"Much of the debate stems from the question of how a person acquires homosexual desires. Popular articles on studies of identical twins raised separately tended to claim that a genetic component was proven. However, the Bailey-Pillard study was not based on a random sample, but a biased sample, as the twins who volunteered were solicited through advertisements in homosexual newspapers and magazines as opposed to general periodicals. Therefore, the subjects were more likely to resemble each other than nonhomosexual twins. Dr. Simon LeVay? stated, ?In fact, the twin studies . . . suggest that it?s not totally inborn [homosexuality], because even identical twins are not always of the same sexual orientation.? Dr. Bailey himself stated, ?There must be something in the environment to yield the discordant twins.?

Anyway, all of that is irrelevant because Christian doctrine is not formed by reading scientific doctrine but is generally a matter of traditional faith."

: - Not bad but probably belongs on a page other than Christian views of homosexuality

Notice LeVay?'s deliberate evasion: "...that's it's not totally inborn..." Not one of the twin studies even claimed that. The most rigorous one (which did NOT have the self-selection problem of B-P study which he conveniently singles out, as if to suggest that all such studies are flawed) made the correlation at 50%. Read that again: 50%. An identical twin raised in a completely separate environment from his brother, has a 50% chance of being gay if his brother is gay. Compare that to a base rate in the population of about 5%, and you'll see that it's quite extraordiary, and to ignore it is totally dishonest. There is a genetic component. Of course it's not 100%, because no possible genetic predisposition could ever predict a behvior 100%--that would be tantamount to genetic determinism, which has also been so thoroughly debunked that no sane person takes it seriously.

: I don't think LeVay?, who is the author of the study and says he is gay, was being evasive or deceptive. My choice of that quotation might be motivated by bias, I concede, but LeVay? is a scientist and was (I believ) adopting a NPOV tone, as befits one researching a murky area of scientific research. Perhaps he was responding to media misinterpretation of his work. Newsweek did a front page "Gay Gene" article, which they quietly retracted in a later year. There is much debate over how to interpret LeVay? and other researchers' work. Also, if there is a twin study with no self-selection bias, that's news to me. I'd love to hear more about it, because despite my religious views I really want to know the science of the matter. --Ed Poor

At any rate, I think it is somewhat relevant to this article, because many rank-and-file Christians do think that a genetic basis undermines he purely moral argument, and many churches do quote it as their basis for coming to a more tolerant position than that of more fundamentalist churches. --LDC

: I think we should make a page on "Homosexuality: Causal theories", put this text there, and link to it from Christian views of homosexuality.

I removed the following opening paragraph from the article--this kind of admonition to the other Wikipedians doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article:

Let's try to keep this page on topic. The dominant Christian view is that homosexuality is a sin. The revisionist view that it's not a sin has gained in popularity, but that should go in a debate page.

"The Roman Catholic Church has clearly stated that homosexual behavior is a sin, not homosexuality itself. Other prominent figures in the Christian Church, such as the Episcopalian bishop [John Spong]?, have argued extensively against this position."

-- could be understood as meaning that Spong thinks homosexuality itself is a sin!

Why is it so important to put in the 'conservative' label? I think it's more likely to mislead than to inform, as Wiki has no definition of conservative Christianity. The word 'traditional' means that it was mainstream until recently. Conservative no longer is synonymous with traditional, is it? --Ed Poor

: Well, if you are concerned that Wiki has no definition of conservative Christianity, then the solution is to add an article on it, not to remove the word 'conservative' from the article. It is important to put in the 'conservative' label here because it is important to highlight that not all of modern Christianity holds this view--rather, only certain brands, which by and large are considered theologically conservative.

Maybe "conservative" is not the best label. Can you propose a better one? Certainly it is more prevalent among some subcultures of Christianity than it is among others. Some denominations ordain gay ministers, for example. That's the fact I'm trying to make clear. --Dmerrill

: Perhaps you are right that conservative is not the best label, but theological conservatism is a fairly commonly used concept. Whether it is accurate or not is another question. It is worth noting that some denominations have both conservative and liberal elements. Bishop Spong, for example, is an Episcopalean, but not all Episcopaleans agree with him.

I'm not sure separating traditional from modern views is useful. It prevents accurate expression of the *range* of viewpoints. It's not just TRADITIONAL vs MODERN. --Dmerrill

: Quite right. The initial bifurcation was (I think) my idea, making the article neutral by highlighting some of the contrast. No doubt the many disparate views deserve attention. I'd like to see more varieties of Christian thought expressed. Do they fall along a continuum or spectrum, or what? (I'm reaching finding out just how little I know, here.) --Ed Poor

I removed the following comments on John Spong because they are irrelevant: "His views are not well accepted among most other Christians, because Bishop Spong also denies that Jesus was really the messiah, or part of the Trinity. Thus most Christians hold him to be a non-Christian monotheist." The point of bringing Spong up in the first place is to simply identify that many prominent Christians do not agree with the Catholic teaching on the subject, not to initiate a discussion on Spong per se. Debates regarding Spong belong in an article on Spong, not here.

Although I know nothing about Spong, I think the comments you removed are very relevant. The relevant question is whether prominent Christians disagree with the Catholic teaching. Spong is listed as an example of such a person. However, if Spong disagrees with most Christians about most other Christian teachings as well, than he really is representative of very few Christians, and his example does not serve to advance the point being made.

: The point is that there is a diversity of opinion among Christians. If Spong is not a good example, then another example could be chosen. It doesn't matter how many Christians agree or disagree with Spong or with the Catholic Church; this isn't a popularity contest, it is a debate. The issue isn't what the majority of Christians believe, but rather that there is a difference of opinion among Christians. It is completely irrelevant whether Spong is in agreement with most Christians. However, I am willing to accept that there might be better examples to use than Spong.

: Perhaps Bishop Spong may be said to represent the views of the Episcopal Church, or a new current within it Ed Poor

: I know he doesn't represent all Episcopaleans, but he does represent the views of some of them. So the compromise you propose would be fine with me. --Egern

How can we work in the intense emotional pain felt by homosexual people, caught in the bind between a Christian Church that condemns in them the same thing that heterosexuals hold so dear? (You see, I'm a humanist as well as a traditional moralist.)

Another issue is the distinction (if any) between denoting something a "sin" and condemning a sinner. Jesus saved a condemned woman from being stoned to death, but told her, "Sin no more." Is it possible, as some Christians believe, to hate the sin and love the sinner? Is the gay world correct in equating disapproval of homosexuality with hate speech? It's a complex issue, but I'm confident wikipedians are competent to address it. --Ed Poor

: Well, Ed, the Catholic church makes the simple point that heterosexuals are not allowed to have sex with anyone and everyone of the opposite sex - just one person. Chastity is enjoined on all, single or married; married chastity happens to include marital sex. Single heterosexual and homosexual chastity would mean no sex, not even with yourself. There is no guaruntee of sexual fulfillment for everyone all the time - no double-standard there. See celibacy. --MichaelTinkler

: To repeat Michael's completely correct statement another way, Catholics may have sex only with their spouses. If you don't have a spouse, you can't have sex. Since someone of the same sex cannot be your spouse, you can never have sex with someone of the same sex. It is simply not true that the "Church ... condemns in them the same thing that heterosexuals hold so dear." Sex outside of marriage is condemned regardless of your preference in partners. --the Epopt

: But that is a rather disingenuous formulation of the issue, since the church only defines marriage as being available to heterosexuals. Church teaching does allow heterosexuals to have an outlet for their sexuality and romantic desires. Yes, there are rules that they put in place that determine exactly how that sexuality can be expressed (namely throuth marriage), but some form of expression of heterosexuality is allowed nonetheless. But the church does not permit any outlet for homosexuality. So it is absolutely true that the "church condemns in them the same thing that heterosexuals hold so dear." With one group of people, they allow an expression of sexuality through a defined set of parameters; with another group of people, they allow no expression of their sexuality whatsoever. In other words, it is a double standard.

: I am not a Catholic, but as I understand it there is a general position by the Church that the purpose of sexuality is procreation. (I'm not quite sure how infertile couples fit into that paradigm, but for fertile couples, if you have sex, you are expected to allow for the possibility that God will create life). Jared Diamond refuted this position from an evolutionary point of view in one of his books ("The Third Chimpanzee", I think it was). The hiding of estrus among human females and other factors leads to human sexuality fulfilling other roles besides procreation--in fact, one could argue that procreation is a secondary purpose of human sexuality, with bonding representing the primary purpose. But hey, I digress. -- Egern

: No, you've hit the nail on the head. That was just the comment I was looking for. I think the issue of double standard is the key point. Those who call homosexuality a sin (behavior or feeling) must answer address the "double standard" issue. (I call homosexuality a sin, but I'll duck the issue for a couple of days; ca'nt do everything at once.) --Ed Poor

No, it is not a double standard. There is one standard that happens to include some types of behaviour and exclude others. You may as well say that condemning theft promulgates a double standard because it doesn't acknowledge the desires of thieves to acquire things by theft while acknowledging the desires of others to acquire things through honest trade or purchase. Yes, the Roman Catholic view of sexuality says that the couple needs to be open to the possibility of conception and having a child, and not actively try to avoid that, unless they avoid it by not having sex. (This could include periodic abstinence.) So infertile couples are fine, provided they aren't infertile because of a surgery or some other action whose purpose was to make them infertile. Homosexual behaviour has roughly a 0% chance of resulting in pregnancy, as well as being outside of marriage, so it happens to be excluded by that standard.

: Sorry, but it is a double standard. The analogy with theft is nonsense because there is nothing inherently dishonest about homosexuality or inhererently honest about heterosexuality. The difference between the two forms of sexuality is the object of the desire, not the deceptiveness or honesty in which the desire is fulfilled. A better analogy would be to describe any scenario in which the church defined parameters for some universal human desire where the parameters necessarily excluded certain objects of that desire, even when some people can only truly satisfy this universal desire through those excluded objects.

The closest example I can come up with at short notice is to imagine some church saying that all people can fulfill their desire to eat dessert, but only if they eat desserts with nuts in them. And if some people are alergic to nuts, you can claim that there is no double standard there, since the standard is the same for everyone; but we all know that is ridiculous. If your standard excludes those who can't eat nuts but who can eat, for example, vanilla ice cream, then you are simply setting up the rules to allow some people to enjoy dessert but not others, no matter how honestly they might want to purchase that delicious dessert.

But of course, human sexuality is not some garden variety desire like eating dessert, but a fundamental one that relates deeply to human relationships and ultimately human happiness. The building of a sexual and romantic relationship is a central component of humanity. To deny something that fundamental to certain people but not to others is just plain cruelty, pure and simple. And to insist on using analogies with things like theft is disingenuous, because surely even the Catholic church knows honesty in the relationship has nothing to do with the difference between same-sex and opposite-sex relationships, and to continue to use that kind of analogy is to suggest something that we all know isn't the case. -- Egern

: After rereading this, I realize that the tone of what I wrote is probably a little harsh, and for that I apologize. It hit a hot button for me and I was a little angry when I wrote it, but the tone is probably inappropriate for this forum.

I was unclear when I said, " . . . condemns in them the same thing that heterosexuals hold so dear." I was referring to the desire (some say need or right) of homosexual couples to enjoy romantic love and/or marriage. Although I regard homosexual behavior as sinful and homosexual "marriage" outrageous, I recognize that (a) I'm in thin company, and (b) much of the pain gays feel stems from their rejection by straight society. Hence their desire to gain acceptance in religion, law, housing, employment, and so on.

I propose we incorporate the issues I'm beginning to describe, into this article or wherever they belong.

--Ed Poor

Although your reasoning is generally good, the dessert parallel is an incorrect analogy. If I understand the previous post correctly, there is one standard: infertile sex should be avoided when possible. This is a biologically sound policy; infertile sex decreases the chances of a community for survival. Whether or not dessert is eaten with nuts is purely arbitrary. (If it were found that nuts increase life expectancy (sp?) the policy would no longer be arbitrary.) In our time, infertile sex will not hurt society. Actually, if the possibility of overpopulation in the near future is taken into account, infertile sex might be a good thing. In the end, it no longer really matters, so in purely biological terms the standard has become obsolete.

I have avoided any mention of "soul" or "love" or other such ideas, since they would require a much more developed post and my ideas (as any opinions are bound to) might push some buttons best left unpushed. --KamikazeArchon