Wikipedia: Bob Jones University/Talk

While I don't disagree with any of the facts presented, shouldn't this article say a bit more about the university? If the only goal is to criticize it, then you could mention that they have also been criticized for denying the Catholics and Mormons are Christians. Personally, I think it would be much more helpful for Wikipedia to include some basic information like when the school was founded, whether they offer postgraduate degrees, which academic programs or sports teams are strongest, and so on. And who the heck is Bob Jones? If someone comes to Wikipedia to learn about Bob Jones University, it's probably because they already heard it was racist and want to learn more background information. And if a prospective college student is wanting to learn more about the university from third party sources, it's fine to point out its racism, but we can serve those people better by also providing more factual background information. And no, I'm not volunteering to do the actual research for this one. ;-) --Wesley

: Agreed, but, again, my interest in finding out more about an institution (one struggles to accept it as a university, with such an illogical attitude) with such ridiculous rules is about zero.

Oh, well - other than the dates, I added what *I* care about, which is the Museum. I can't tell you how odd it is to find a museum like this in Greenville, SC. --MichaelTinkler

One question I'd like answered is "Do any African-American students actually attend the university?" --Robert Merkel

: Yes, there's usually at least one N... er, Black student, usually one that believes in the same brand of Christianity that BJU espouses. When I was in Ghana in 1988 I ran into a guy who had been accepted to BJU, who was black, but I don't think he got a student visa. The guys who work for the State Department aren't that stupid: you can't get a visa if you're clearly planning on violating it. GregLindahl

Is it correct to say that Ronald Reagan "supported the school's racial discrimination", or that Ronald Reagan "supported the school's right to racially discriminate". There's a world of difference. I'm making the change right now on the assumption that Reagan, a semi-libertarian in some respects, might well have supported their right as a private institution to admit who they like, while at the same time not supporting their policy itself. --Jimbo Wales

Well, the issue was not about whether they had the right to racially discriminate; it was about whether they were entitled to a tax exemption if they were going to do so. Withdrawing the tax exemption still hasn't stopped the racial discrimination that lead to its withdrawal. Frankly, I think the main reason Reagan supported them was because of his desire to get conservative South Carolina voters, a significant percentage of whom like Bob Jones University. I agree though that he probably supported them being allowed to have the policy and still get a tax exemption, without actually agreeing with the policy. But I don't like the formulation "supported the school's right to racially discriminate" -- it seems to imply that they have a right to racially discriminate, and he was supporting their right -- it really should say he supported the school's alleged or claimed right to racially discriminate. -- SJK

I accept your change. My wording was based on my own view -- racial discrimination in any form is vile and despicable, immoral collectivist behavior -- but that private religious organizations do in fact have a right to engage in it if they so desire. Your wording is more limited and unless and until we find out what Reagan actually did say, is certainly less speculative.

: For what it's worth, I am content to let any group adopt race as a standard for inclusion. I meet feel miffed about not being able to join, but freedom of association should take priority. I do think it strange that a church or university would have restrictions based on race, but I can think of no rule fair enough to apply to Bob Jones U., the "historically black" colleges of Atlanta, the senate's Black Caucus, etc. If a bunch of people want to isolate themselves from the mainstream, more power to them. But, the government shouldn't have to do them any favors. For universities, that means no tax-exemption unless they can convince the courts that their race policies (a) are an integral part of their religion and (b) . . . hmm, this issue is more complicated than I thought. I'm stuck between honoring freedom of religion on the one hand, and hating racial discrimintation with a vengeance on the other.

Anyway, good rewrite of the article.

Ed Poor

: Ed, do you realize that there are many white people who go to historically black colleges? There are no race based rules. Big difference. I went to a school that's 70% Jewish, and they even gave me a scholarship in part because I'm not. GregLindahl

"traces its history to a school founded in 1927 by [Bob Jones, Sr.]?, an evangelist and revival-preacher."

: Is "revival-preacher" even an English word?

It is understood by speakers of English. It is well formed (see Morphology in linguistics, entry compounding?; still to be written)

I am a speaker of English and I don't understand it. :-)

: OK, but at least you probably can deduce that it must mean a person who preaches revival (whatever that is specifically ;-) ). I just was opposing the question that it is not an English word. It is. Another thing is if it is understood here what it means. Anyhow this talk seems OT.

"After that it adopted its current racially discriminatory policy, which it retains to this day (2001)."

I would like very much to see some expansion/explanation re this policy.

: The policy is the one mentioned in the article -- students who marry or date members of a different race from their own are expelled.

: Added/clarified this in the entry. Thanks.

"The college, like many other fundamentalist Christian schools, is not accredited due to concerns about governmental control over policy or curriculum."

- changing this to: "The college, like many other fundamentalist Christian schools, has not sought accreditation due to concerns about governmental control over policy or curriculum."

I assume this is correct and more acurrately reflects that BJU's lack of acreditation is their idea rather than imposed by government. If this is wrong please correct.